2 questions on my old steam system

kacrejam

Hi All, 

I'm a novice at steam heat but am somewhat handy (so if fixes are needed I may be able to handle).  I have 2 questions related to my steam system piping.  My house is 100+ years old (I'm guessing my steam piping is quit old as well).  About 40 ft down my main supply pipe i have these 2 issues. 

The first is that you can see some sort of repair made.  It looks to me that a section of steel pipe (1 1/4"?) was replaced with some copper pipping (1"?).  Besides the use of copper here (which i understand is not ideal) is this a size issue?  Should i replace this section with steel pipe?

The second question is related to what i think is an old pressure gauge.  This gauge also sits around 45 ft down my main supply (before most branches).  It seems to be stuck reading 10psi.  It never read anything but 10psi.  I beleive its broke.  I run my system (Pressuretrol) at .5cut in and 1psi differential.  Why would this old pressure gauge be here?  Should i replace?  The other option I'm thinking is to replace with a Vent?  I don't seem to have any vents on my 2-pipe system other then at the radiators.



Thanks in advance for any help or advice on these 2 things.

BobC

Is the patch causing problems?

That fix was unfortunate and should be rectified at some point but it's not going to be easy so I'd make that a job for next summer. Is that fix causing any problems that you know of?



The gauge was probably used at some point as a trouble shooting tool, though one with that range would not be very useful on 2 pipe steam. Does the system have any steam traps on it? How about some pictures of the boiler and the piping around it so we can see if it's an old vapor system.



Are those two dry returns that are coming together and then dropping to a wet return and is it after the last radiator takeoffs? That can cause problems, tying returns together above the waterline is usually asking for trouble.



Figure out the volume of air in the mains and size a vent accordingly assuming there are no steam traps.



Bob

kacrejam

More pics

BobC,



I'm not aware of any problems directly related to that fix.  However i do have quit a bit of water hammer (and probably unrelated...a bit of surging in my boiler that seems to trip the LWCO at times).  Sounds like I should just leave this old fix alone for now.  I was just concerned that dropping the pipe size there would affect delivery of steam.

I'm posting some more pics of (1)my boiler, (2) the retrun pipe of one of my radiators on the first floor which I'm not sure whether this is a steam trap or not and (3) pics of one of my five "in-direct" radiators that hang in my basement.  I have what i can best describe as a mixed system....I have 5 in-direct radiators (in my basement, these have 2 pipes, one steam and one return), 3 radiators that have 2 pipes and then 5 radiators that are only one pipe.  All radiators in my system have steam vents.  As well the Indirect radiators in my basement all have vents (an assortment of vents, one old hoffman 75 and some others).  However I seemingly don't have a "Main Vent".  I'm wondering if I would be well served by adding a Gorton #2 at the same spot as that old broken seemingly useless pressure gauge?  If I have these vents in my Indirect radiators in the basement do I still need a Main Vent?



Related to the drip legs that you noticed.  I think i should probably send more pics.  Howevere these are definietly Before all the radiator takeoffs.

JStar

Steam

Damn, that boiler piping is awful. There's your biggest problem. That'll cause wet steam and give you a terribly innefficient system



Looks like you have a very unhappy system, with a whole lot of knuckleheading. Anything you do will be a great improvement to your comfort level and your fuel bills.

ChrisJ

Ouch

Honestly the patch in the piping is bad, but that copper piping over the boiler is awful.  I bet that poor block crys everytime that thing expands and trys to push the sections of the block apart.   Ugh.

Jamie Hall

Indeed...

well, the boiler piping has been discussed... so I won't bother.



What I'm interested in is the photo of an end of a radiator which has a steam vent on it -- and a valve.  Do both ends of the radiators with two pipes to them have valves?  And both come in at the bottom?  If so, they are piped in an early style of two pipe system (which I like to call one and a half pipe!) which is really a variant on one pipe, only with the radiators fed at both ends (Dan has a nice commentary on it in "The Lost Art").  Makes life a little more interesting.



In any event you are going to be much happier with main vents (aside from that boiler...).  That pressure gauge -- which is probably busted and which isn't doing anything for anyone -- is one possible location, however, you should trace out the main(s) and place the main vents reasonably close to the end(s).  If you can give us the sizes of the main(s), we can help figure what vents might be useful.



The water hammer may be related to the unfortunate boiler piping.  It may also be related to that patch, which is going to do two things: first, notice that it is concentric fittings, and they will block condensate flow which will then cheerfully go bang.  Second, being copper and uninsulated it will condense an amazing amount of steam, which will also tend to go bang.  There may also be levelling issues; in a house that old (trust me, been there) it is quite possible that some of the runouts -- or even the main -- don't slope properly to drain.  Not just end to end, but sags.  You should check that thoroughly.

kacrejam

Sorry

Didn't mean to offend you guys with pictures of my boiler.  Mostly just looking to improve my system that I inherited.  Would you recommend that the copper be replaced above the boiler (thats the most of the above water line copper, the rest of the main steam line is black pipe- I'm guessing the near boiler copper must have been installed with the new boiler about 10 years ago). Is it possible and should I have the copper above the boiler replaced?  What was the other knucklheading you guys noticed?

BobC

Yes

That boiler header should be redone in threaded steel come spring. The boiler install manual will have specific piping instructions. If you don't have the installation manual give us the make and model and we can probably point you towards one.



Measure the length and diameter of the main(s) so we can figure the volume of air to be handled so you will know what vent(s) you should use. While your doing that use a level to check the piping for correct slope.



It would help you to make a layout that shows how the radiators come off the steam mains and how they connect to the returns. Check the returns for slope also.



Bob

kacrejam

Jamie

Jamie, Thanks for the reponse.  Related to that radiator.  Yes this is a Big radiator that sits in my 1 st floor living room.  It has 2 pipes coming to it.  One on each side.  I'm assuming this radiaotr may be original to the house (100 years?).  On the right is the steam supply and on the left (as my pic showed).  There's is a return line connected to my return and it does indeed have a valve on it.



The Main supply is 2" pipe and travels the width of my old house (~50') and then splits into two 1 1/2 supply lines.



I did notice that at the fix there is a reducer that is concentric.  That was a part of my concern with that "fix".  Sounds like I should replace this "fix"....

BobC

buy the book

If you don't own "the lost Art of Steam Heating" (available from this site) you should pick up a copy. On page 125 Dan Holohan describes your system. The book has the distilled wisdom from the men who designed and installed these systems.



Bob

Jamie Hall

No offense on the boiler piping

Trust me, we've seen worse!  There's two things wrong with it -- first off, it's in copper and soldered, which puts a tremendous strain on the boiler as the copper expands a lot more than the iron of the boiler, and thus it tries to pry the boiler apart every time it fires up.  Not good... Second, the layout of the piping isn't correct.  As Bob noted, the boiler installation manual will have recommendations; if you don't have the manual, we can probably find it for you.



You should replace the "fix".  (We've seen things worse than that, too, though, so don't panic).  But it -- and the boiler piping -- can wait until spring.  No sense in tearing into a project like that when it's cold out when you don't have to!



I think that were it mine, I'd treat the two 1 1/2" supply lines as though they were mains, and put a main vent near the end of each one -- and I like venting, so I'd probably just use a Gorton #2 on each one, although you might get away with smaller.  If that isn't feasible -- and there might be good reasons why not -- a Gorton #2 where that gauge is would certainly help a lot.



Oh yes -- and after you've fixed the "fix" and the boiler pipiing and checked for sags etc., insulate everything including the returns!

Rod

Boiler Piping

Hi- As others have mentioned the piping connected to the boiler needs to be replaced and reconfigured.  Besides being done in copper, the riser pipe going to the steam main is connected between the two riser pipes coming out of the boiler. Configured this way the system isn't very efficient and the quality of the steam poor. (See attached drawing)  It looks like it will be fairly easy to straighten the piping out though unless it was an emergency I would wait until the spring till after the heating system has been shut down.

     Bob mentioned getting the book, “The Lost Art of Steam Heating”

http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Steam-Heating-Books/25/68/Lost-Art-Of-Steam-Heating

This is an excellent idea as it will be a great help to you and also we can then refer you to a specific page to answer your questions.

     What is the make and model of your boiler? Let us know and maybe we can find the installation manual for it.

- Rod

icesailor

Copper Piping:

Well, I'll be the first to say it.

Whomever installed that boiler piping.  Knucklehead is too kind a term. You can use any unpostable term to describe them.

Those two copper 90 degree ells are DWV Copper fittings, non pressure fittings and only have a 3/4" insertion. They are NOT designed for pressure.  Get that out of there. Measure the insertions of the tee going into the supply and then the insertions of the 2" 90's. Get it changed, have them pipe it with a proper offset header and pipe back to the supply. The system will work better instantly. Then, deal with other problems.

From what I have learned here, most all steam problems start about three inches above the boiler. Start from there and continue to the heat emitters. Look at some of the really quality piping jobs here. Get something close or equal to that and most of your problems will fade away.

My favorite saying:

There's never enough time to do it right. But always time for someone else to do it over.

If anyone you have look at that and doesn't immediately know that it needs to be changed, they aren't your person.

That's a hell of a thing to do to a boiler.

EDIT:

I just looked at the picture again, those are ALL DWV copper fittings. Notice the 1 1/2" X 1" Pressure Bushing on the 2"x1 1/2"x 2"  DWV Copper TY. Notice the bushing sticking out past the shoulder of the tee.

kacrejam

I owe you guys..

All,  Thanks for all this solid advice.  I will definitely get this "Lost Art" book.  And sounds like know matter what a Gorton #2 at the end of the Main supply line is a nice replace of that broken pressure gauge.



Related to the more important issue of the "above boiler" piping.  Sounds like this is a source of alot of ills.  The boiler is a Weil Mclain EGH-95-PIN.  That would be great if you had the manual or info related to correct piping for this.  Some additional questions:  To correct this situation would I expect someone be able to re-pipe with steel and connect into the exisiting steel?  Or would they need to replace some portion of the legacy steel piping?  Also, would the whole hartford loop need to be re-piped in steel?  Might anyone have a pic of what the correct piping would look like?



I'm not sure if allowed to ask on these forums but does anyone know someone in my area which would be a good for this job?  I live in the western suburbs of Philadelphia (Near Villanova). 

ChrisJ

Piping

Please see the link at the bottom of my post for pictures of how the boiler should be piped.



Mine is an EG-45, much smaller than yours but it will give you very good idea. I'm guessing yours will need two 3" risers out of the boiler into a 4" header to operate at its best. Mine is two 2" risers into a 3" header which is well above WM's minimum requirements for my boiler.

icesailor

Check this out:

Here is the instruction and installation manual for your boiler. Notice the installation piping diagram for your EGH boiler. It in no way resembles what is there.

Others here will help you or someone with the piping



http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/products/discontinued/discontinued-boilers/eg-peg-egh-boiler/egpegegh3manual.pdf

Jamie Hall

Steam man

I think that Steamhead may go that far... and he's one of the very best in the business.  Find one of his posts and follow that up for his information and 'phone.

Steamhead

Thanks Jamie

we just might!



Kakrejam, looking at the last two pictures in your "More pics" post, it would seem there may be more to this than a two-pipe air-vent system. They both show what looks like an indirect radiator inside the wooden box that has a Hoffman #4A vent on a pipe sticking out of it. Then I see two thermostatic traps going into the return line at the lower right of the left pic. The pipe from the indirect to the return line has a valve in it, but no trap that we can see.



Since a two-pipe air-vent system didn't use traps, obviously some changes have been made. We'll need to actually see the system to determine how everything fits together- if it fits at all.



Send me a PM thru this board including your phone number and we'll talk.

kacrejam

Steamhead,

I sent you an email.  Please do call when you get a chance.



Yes, I have 5 in-direct radiators.  Each seem to be piped the same way and I don't think any have a thermostatic traps on them.  All have some form of pipe with a vent.  Howvere some are Hoffmans and some other.  



It seems that the return lines coming from radiators that are on the 1st and second floors do have these thermostatic traps.