Are there 12 volt DC circulator pumps?

Patchogue Phil_2

Does there exist a 12 volt DC circulator to replace a typical Taco 007?

SWEI

maybe

But there are quite a few options for lower flows.  What's the application?

Patchogue Phil_2

Not for lower flow

Thinking out loud ....  alternate power source of 12 volt DC for prolonged power outage like Hurricane Sandy.



Mom (77 yrs old)  has a propane boiler with copper fin tube baseboard.  Gas valve is self-powering millivolt w/pilot (yeah kinda old style).  The boiler was making hot water during Sandy,  but since the (line voltage) power from LIPA was out for 11 days there was no heat being circulated throughout the house.



This scenario really begs for a simple 1200W generator - run the boiler pump, fridge and a few lights.  But Mom won't set up or start a portable generator.  To make a generator solution simpler or automatic would be way too expensive for us.



But she would plug an extension cord from her car to a parallel plumbed 12v DC circulator pump on her boiler.  Then the boiler water can be circulated every so often during a power failure.   An inverter would also work.



Could also set up the 12v pump with a deep-cycle marine 12v battery.  The car could recharge the marine battery when needed during a power failure.  A battery minder can maintain the charge until the battery is needed during a power outage.



Just thinking out loud .....

icesailor

Thinking in my head:

There's something, somewhere.

All heating systems (wet hydronic hot water systems) have a flow check to stop gravity flow. Zone valves are just motorized flow checks. If you could connect your mothers car battery (she's going to do that?) she will need to run the car. And run the extension car. And the car may be low on gas and you can't get to a gas station that has gas but no power to pump it.

If you open the flow check on the top of the boiler, the water will flow on gravity. If you have zone valves, you can open and close the checks.

Easier than running power cables and replacing circulators.

If its a millivolt system, I believe that the thermostat will run the gas valve.

If that's true, it could be like FM and a beautiful thing. That old stuff by the old dead guys? Far more usefull than some of the "high tech" overengineered and overthought stuff of today.



Just thinking in my head.

Nick Ciasullo

B&G

Bell and Gossett offers a DC pump.  Smaller than a 007, but it will move 3-4 gpm.  That may not make the house toasty on design day, but you should be good otherwise.

Full disclosure, I am a B&G rep.  I am not aware of any other manufacturer offering a pump like this in the US.  Go to their website and look at the SC Solar Circ.

SWEI

ecocirc

Is exactly what I was thinking of.  Depending on the system layout, two or three of them (replacing zone valves) might do the trick.

icesailor

DC Circ's

Garrison Keillor's A Prarie Home Companion had a sponsor years ago called The Institute of Low Technology. He also had all those norwegian batcheler farmers and germans that were really into using what they had. My german/scotts heritage says to open the flow check now and see what happens. The lazy in me trembles at the thought of cutting another circulator into the loop with a bypass because if you don't, and the stand-by circulator spins, it will wear out the motor bearings. And if you only need to open the flow check to get the house hot, it sure is a blessing on the body. If it doesn't work, there are other options.

But judging by all the overheat calls I've been on in my time, a house sure will get hot with debris under the flow check.

Whatever works.

STEVEusaPA

Why not

An automatic propane generator, wired with a transfer switch that will do just the things you need

Patchogue Phil_2

Read back to my 2nd post

To make a generator solution simpler or automatic would be way too expensive for us.

STEVEusaPA

Yeah, I can read....

Phil, but your scenario, marine batteries, battery minders, extension cords, going out to start a car, and let in run during a blizzard, etc. sounds like a lot for a 77 year old woman.

Unless your in an area where they are price gouging gens, I think you'd be surprised how cheap you can do it with propane ( you already have a tank). If it were me, I'd pay a little for the piece of mind.

Edit....

Plus what if the power goes out for a week or longer.....

icesailor

Did you try:

Did you try what I suggested? Opening the flow check to see how hot the house got on just the gravity flowing? If you have a Milivolt system (like you said) and the burner will run without external power (like I thought you said), it might be a simple solution to your problem. You won't know unless you try it.

Patchogue Phil_2

True, Ice

I won't know till I try it.  Next time I am at Mom's house (23 miles away from me) I will look to see if this is possible.  Working from unsure memory,  I *think* there is a check-valve up near the ceiling of the basement.  Not sure,  though if Mom can get up at it with a flashlight in a power fail.      :-)

Gordy

Flo check

Careful if its a weighted flo check like a B&G the packing will probably start leaking around the brass stem when you crank it open.



Well pretty hard to be careful just be ready to repack it.

Patchogue Phil_2

Total automated LP genny

Minimum package cost was about $1,400.00 w/o installation.



And for some reason,  Mom said she would not start and refuel a gasoline generator.  But she would plug an extension cord from the house to a connector 15 feet away on her car



Last I looked LP standalone generators,  electric start is more than budget.  Not being cheap.  Just do not have the money.



Not sure Mom could get a genny from the shed,  wheel it over to the LP tanks,  hookup to the propane tanks,  and pull start a small inexpensive genny.



If you know of an inexpensive,  electric start LP generator that can be left connected to the LP tanks and ready to run,  please let me know.

Patchogue Phil_2

old check valve

It's old -  been there since early 1970's or late 1960's.  Cast iron.



On second thought,  I am not inclined to futz with it.  Better to just replace it if it is to be played with to allow gravity feed during a storm.



But again someone has to open and close it if there is a power fail.  The house could get overheated if left open.

Paul48

Inverter

why not run the circ off an inverter?

Patchogue Phil_2

Possible too

What's cheaper?  An inverter large enough to run the heat circulator or a 12v DC circulator pump?



Mind you,  not expecting to run the car all day long.   Just 10 or 15 minutes at a time to get the chill out of the house.



Plus with an inverter would have to set up a transfer switch for the circulator power.

SWEI

inverter plus ECM circ

Should come within 10% of what a good DC pump needs.  Voltage drop on 12V lines gets ugly fast, plus you could power a couple other critical loads.

icesailor

Moms:

Phil,

Like I said earlier, I'm always looking for some good old fashioned low technology.

That Flow Check is either red, and a Bell & Gossett (B & or a Taco Green Taco.

Go visit Moms before the next power failure and give the top of the valve a good dose of Kroil, WD 40, CRC or your favorite metal loosening fluid. Kroil seems to get into packing's better than anything I have ever used. Unscrew the lever. See what happens on gravity flow. I know what happens if you get a piece of debris under the seat of a Taco 572 zone valve, The zone stays hot.

The thought of wiring inverters and piping in a parallel DC pump and all that time and work is making the back of my neck red and hot and I'm getting a head ache.

If you have a millivolt gas valve, and it will run off the thermostat, and the boiler will run on gravity, and the neighbors will be at moms house to keep warm.

Tim McElwain

Phil

here is how you do it. If Mom has FHW then she must have a relay that brings in the Powerpile valve is that correct? It might be an L8148B which will have a manual automatic switch on the side. During power failure place on manual (it will cycle on high limit) open flow check or if zoned put zone valves on manual. If the relay is a switching relay then a toggle switch placed across either TT (R-832) 5 & 6 (R-845). another option is an L8148J universal replacement relay which also has a manual/automatic switch.



I have run many a house on gravity both forced hot water and forced warm air with powerpile. MY furnace has a powerpile valve and all I have to do is remove the blower compartment door and it will cycle off the powerpile thermostat and feed heat by gravity through the duct system.



Hope that helps.

Harvey Ramer

Harbor Freight Tools

sells a little Chicago Electric generator for $129.00 It is 900 watts, enough for a couple circs. It is a 2-cycle so it may be finicky to start.



Lang also has some DC circs. I think you'll find them to be fairly costly.

Patchogue Phil_2

flow check pen = overheat ?

If I understand correctly,  if you open a flow check manually for gravity flow,  then the house could overheat unless you close the flow check??



If that is true then I don't see Mom going down the basement, with a flashlight,  climb a ladder to open/close the flow check multiple times a day.  The existing flowcheck or an electric zone valve could be mounted within her reach.



Connected once,  a 12v dc hookup to the car can be turned on and off with her remote-start,  from the comfort of her living room.