$50 if you can figure this out...

Paul48

Sorry

Got sidetracked with anothers question re: proper valving. It has nothing to do with your problem. Honestly.....Your system has to be evaluated by someone present at the site. We would all like to be able to give you a simple fix for your problem, but with just that picture of the rad alone, it indicates there may be bigger problems.

numberforty1

Oh, that's alright

I understand you can't tell a whole lot from a picture alone. If there was an obvious solution I probably would have figured it out from here...

ttekushan_3

I'm Picturing. . .

Having seen steam piped as if it were hot water by someone or a crew (a crew can do more damage in a shorter period of time) who figured there was no difference, I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere on the same line, there isn't a direct connection from supply to return.



The supply to return connection could be made either through a radiator piped as yours, or piped directly by someone thinking they were working on a Monoflow hot water system, where supply and return from a removed radiator need to be bridged.



Either way, without a steam trap (you said that the landlord added the vents so it is probably a true two pipe steam system) steam will enter the return system and close the return main air vents very quickly and stall the steam. That's why they added the radiator vents I'll bet.



The good news is, there may be a limited number of radiators piped without vents and the problem can be corrected fairly easily by adding a steam trap to each radiator piped this way.



I just hope the copper piping that this radiator is connected to wasn't replaced and pitched incorrectly.



An interesting experiment, if you haven't tried it already, would be to close the supply valve and open the return valve and put the air vent upright again and see if steam comes up through the return.



Just my $50 worth. :-)

numberforty1

Hmm

Hi, thanks for the well written reply, I just don't know these systems well enough to picture everything you're describing.  In the scenario you described, what would be making the rattling noise?  And how would the steam trap stop it?



In answer to your question, yes, if I close the supply and open the return with the vent open, the steam does come up the return pipe.  What does that tell us?  Opening the return valve also causes large amounts of water to start running, the thing practically sounds like a toilet.



My guess is that water is trapped in the pipes right under the radiator, and when the system heats up the steam drives that water against the closed valves and makes the rattling noise.  If so of course the solution is to move the water.



Oh, I tried blowing the water back down to the boiler but no luck.  Even after I opened the valves, actually, it didn't seem like I could force much air into the radiator at all.  It seemed to kind of blow it back at me (yes the heat was off).



Really appreciate the replies, any insights are golden to me at this point.

ttekushan_3

ah HA!

The returns are choked with steam. That's why steam is able to come up backwards thru the return line. A true two-pipe system should have no steam in the returns. It seems there's a whole riser or significant section of the system piped without proper steam traps. It's likely that the condensate is being percolated upward by the air trying to escape thru random radiator vents. The returns can't handle the air, steam and condensate in counterflow without making all kinds of gurgling and hammering sounds. The pipes can telescope those sounds everywhere.



The two radiators that work probably fill before the basement return vents close so since the air is expelled, they will continue to heat properly (and even quietly) for the remainder of the cycle.



What remains to be seen is what else they screwed up, like rerouting a return in the basement to clear a doorway or some other stupid thing that creates a water seal trap that necessitated the addition of the band-aid radiator vents.



A good steam person will pick this sort of thing off right away.



Long and short, the repiping was done in ignorance and the issues probably extend all the way through the basement level. With any luck, installation of steam traps, elimination of any steam-to-return short circuits, proper steam main dripping and correction of any return piping faults will solve the problem.



It will be easy to find-- Just follow the copper!



-T



P.S. If this was a two-pipe-with-air-vent system (which went out of vogue by about 1895-1900 or so), different rules apply. A good steam person should be familiar with that as well. But those systems ran silently, so you still have to follow the copper!

numberforty1

If I Get All The Vents Closed...

...might that theoretically stop the air from percolating the condensate upward?  I have closed all the vents except for one, which still needs to be cut out of the radiator cover (they really managed to make everything difficult).  I have noticed that the radiator in my room always start rattling right after I hear the remaining open vent start to hiss...



As far as following the copper, how do I do that when it's encased in the floors and walls?  I want to sell the landlord on fixing the system, but if it means gutting the place I doubt it will happen...



Thank you!