$50 if you can figure this out...

numberforty1

Alright, I'm at the end of my rope.  I moved into the second floor of an old home in Brooklyn with a two-pipe system and Sunrad radiators.  There are 4 of them in my place.  The two small ones are completely quiet.  The two large ones I keep completely turned off, with both valves closed at all times, but here is a large amount of water swishing around and making rattling noises right underneath these two radiators.  The landlord says all he can do is turn down the pressure, and that there is no way to get rid of the water causing the problem.



So, apparently I'm supposed to just accept that this system is practically flooded and making an incredibly annoying racket.  Unfortunately, I don't accept BS like that.  On the other hand, I can't for the life of me think of anything to do other than tear the floors and walls apart to somehow adjust the pipe.



Steam experts of the world....help me!  If you're near Brooklyn I'll give you whatever you want to fix it!!

JStar

Steam

Try opening only the return valve. Maybe the supply valve is leaking past.

nicholas bonham-carter

Fifty bucks

It sounds like the pressure is too high, and your landlord could save that sum and more by doing a little deferred maintence. I wonder if he knows how much fuel is being wasted with over-pressure-maybe 25%?--NBC

JStar

System

It's not worth looking at only one radiator. I (and any good steam contractor) would be willing to help you, but only if we have access to the whole system. The landlord needs to cooperate.

numberforty1

Here's the thing...

I have tried opening and closing the valves in every combination...they yield slightly different noises but always some combination of gurgling/rattling.  The valves work fairly decently because the pipes and radiator do not heat when the valves are closed.



Yes, the pressure was high, my genius landlord had it well over 3psi, and now its down to 1.5psi, and he said he is taking it down to 1psi tomorrow.



But, since the noise seems to be caused by all this water I hear running through the pipes, the question is...HOW do I get the water OUT?



And I really will give someone $50 if they tell me a way to fix this, at the moment all I can think of is how to cover/insulate the radiator and piping so that at least I can't hear the rattling.  Do they sell rad covers specifically designed for soundproofing?  It would have to be pretty heavy duty for this kind of noise.



JStar, how can I contact you if I can talk the landlord into it?

JStar

Contact

You can find my company info in my profile, from the signature below. Or email me at j.starosielec@ecuacool.com



Have you talked to any other tenants? Do they have the same problem?

numberforty1

There is only one other tenant...

...next to me on the second floor, and I have not asked them about it yet.  As you know, some people live quite happily with hissing and knocking radiators, I'm just not one of them (though I wish!).  The first floor is occupied by the landlord's mother who is 80+.  I was told that the boiler is closer to the small radiators, and that they make no noise because their pipes go more or less straight down instead of running horizontally for a ways.



Can I get the water out of the pipes by hooking up a hose to the vent hole and letting the pressure blow some of it out?  I've seen that done before, but I don't know where to get a hose that I can connect like that.

JStar

Water

You won't need a lot of pressure to do it. I often just remove an air vent and blow into the radiator to move trapped water in concealed piping. That would be a good test. BUT FIRST make sure the steam if off!!!

numberforty1

That's true...

...I didn't think of blowing air into the radiator, but that could work.  Any relatively cheap air pumps that work well for that?  I could blow into it myself but I feel like I could do a better job with a machine...do you think all trapped water could be blown back down to the boiler, and that would stop all gurgling/rattling?  If so I'd owe you.



It's also a chore finding a time when the steam is off, it's on practically 24/7...

Paul48

Vents?

Two-pipe system?

RJ_4

rad.valve

Disconnect the radiators in question, inspect the disc on the radiator valve, if it is cracked or deformed steam can get in but condensate cant get out. i have had this problem before.  solution, replace the rad. valve

JStar

Air

A person can blow hard enough to lift water a few feet. That's enough to overcome any sags or traps, sending the water back to the boiler. However, it is only a temporary fix. The noise will eventually come back.

numberforty1

Yes, vents on a two-pipe system...

The landlord said he put the vents there to make the heat come up faster...all it really did was make a bunch of hissing machines.  I turned them all upside down to close them, except for one that has to be cut out of the wall and is still hissing like mad...ugh.

JStar

Vents

And is a big red flag that there are other problems with the system. Unfortunately, vents are cheap...maintenance is expensive.

numberforty1

But the issue is the same with valves open too...

Thanks, but again the water seems trapped in the pipes under the radiator, not in the radiator itself.  Hence the rattling whether the valves are open or closed.  If it was just a leaky valve, the noise would go away with the valves open, correct?

numberforty1

Thanks

I'll try this...what red flags do the vents raise?

Paul48

Wild Stab

Bad steam traps on a common return. The system needs proper evaluation. The delay in making things proper costs him un-necessary money every hour of every day. Ever heard the expression...Penny-wise and Dollar-foolish.

JStar

Red flags

Most conventional two pipe systems have steam traps that separate the steam mains and returns. If the traps fails, steam will disturb this balance and cause noise, or uneven heating. Adding a vent to the radiator will work...but not work well.



If the steam needs to be "pushed faster", then there is something else going on, too. Either the pressure is to high (already addressed), or there are piping issues in the system or around the boiler.

RJ_4

traps

As all have said take a look at the traps, when was the last time the cage units were replaced on the traps, there most likely a hoffman 17c, they are not that expensive.  Is the cond. return piping  below the radiator pitched right.   I recommend like others you have landlord have a pro look at the system.  Also if the rad, valve disc has deteriorated within the valve body it could be blocking condensate from returning

numberforty1

There are no traps...

...here's a picture, should have posted this before.  There are no traps on these, just vents.  So that's not it.  Also there is no way to change the pitch of this radiator, as stupid as that seems.  And again, the rattling occurs even when the valves are OPEN, so that would mean that bad valves are not the cause of the problem, right?

JStar

Traps

The traps are probably under the floor or in the basement. Unless, the returns all go to their own wet return connection. Judging by the copper piping, I suspect much knuckleheading.

Paul48

UhOh

JStar...........Runnnnn!!!!!!

numberforty1

?

This comment makes me nervous, should I ask you to clarify?

Paul48

Just Kidding

The copper pipes are an indication that someone had no clue about steam.

JStar

Steam

Steam problems are always CAUSED and never just HAPPEN. This radiator is an indication of years of improper work and a lack of steam knowledge.

RJ_4

valves

Those are ball valves, not radiator valves,  you definetly need a STEAM pro to look at this. looks like a steam/hydronic hybrid (just kidding )  looks like the installer thought they were hooking up some form of hydronic system.

Paul48

Anticipation

I can't wait.....Can you get some pictures of the boiler? Probably got a circulator on the main.

JStar

Steam

I just imagined the contractor doing the work.



"Man, this system drained really fast! That's weird. Oh well, let's throw in this new heater and get some lunch..."

numberforty1

Alright, guess this is inevitable...

Let me try to get this straight...copper piping is bad in general for steam (corrosion, increased condensation?), ball valves are not supposed to be used with Sunrads (what other kind of valve would fit under there?), and in general I'm just screwed?  It figures, I really liked this house too...



I guess this question was just unavoidable - what's a reasonable fee for an inspection and quote?

Paul48

Sad

Probably paid a pretty penny to have that system butchered like that.I'd have to see the rest, but how do you tell the guy?

JStar

Steam

It's not your fault. And, you've come to know just how rare good steam work is. At least you want to improve the situation. That's the biggest first step that most contractors don't take.



We don't talk prices here. If you email me, we can discuss it privately.



j.starosielec@ecuacool.com



However, this is really the landlord's problem, not yours.

RJ_4

problem

I feel for you I have many landlords over the years that were stubborn, I would set up a meeting with a steam pro and the landlord and show him the problem.  Check the city no heat laws where you live,   when I was working in the San Fran. in 2011 if the tenant was without heat the  landlord had to give a rent deduction

SWEI

just imagined

got a nice laugh out of that one!

billtwocase

I have seen this pic before on here

Did you post elsewhere here? Not a fan of the copper, and shouldn't both be the same size? One looks like 3/4, and the other is 1/2"?

numberforty1

Yea

Yea, it's been a task just figuring out the right questions to ask, which is true of most things.  I don't think so, one person told me the supply pipe was intentionally larger than the return pipe in order to insure the steam moves the right direction (?)

JStar

Pipe sizes

The supply is larger beause steam has a greater volume than condensate/water. Pressure difference moves the steam, no matter what the size is.

numberforty1

Are There Definitely Traps Somewhere?

Is it impossible for a two pipe system to work without traps?  I wouldn't put anything past the folks who installed this system, but if there definitely are traps below the floor somewhere, could they make the clicking/rattling sound I'm hearing? 



It would be nice if that aspect could be fixed with a simple replacement, even though I'm sure the whole system could be re-done.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Tell me if I'm wrong.........

This SunRad radiator looks like it's made to be enclosed in a cabinet space with some kind of attractive louvre to allow cold air in at the bottom and hot air out at the top. Mounting the radiator exposed in front of the wall like that is great for air flow, but not great for aesthetics, no?



I don't remember seeing a Sunrad piped properly. Is there really enough room underneath for a valve and trap? Just sayin'.

Paul48

Maybe

not old at all. I'll bet the manufacturer has valves and traps available also. http://www.governaleindustries.com/govray.cfm

Paul48

Maybe

Kill 2 birds with 1 stone...Side mounted TRV? http://na.heating.danfoss.com/PCMPDF/RA%202000%20Datasheet_5_05_08.pdf

numberforty1

Forgive me if I'm missing what you're saying...

...but again, the current ball valves are always closed, and they do appear to close completely because the radiator does not warm up at all, so how could new valves help?