Losing 9 gals/hr of water. Can it be Elastomer Seal Failure??

Benny_2

12-year old Weil-Mclain 488 oil fired steamer. Our boiler has been serviced yearly (possibly badly?) and we blow-down weekly in winter.



Our water meter is showing a water loss of 7 to 9 gallons for each hour of continuous run time. So far:

We see no water leaking from return pipes

No water on floor near boiler

With boiler cover removed, no steam detected escaping boiler.

As far as I know, no white steam visible leaving the chimney.



The local plumber who came to look at the boiler supects elastomer seal failure. He proposes opening up the boiler to take a look inside. He explained that this is an all day job that entails removing all controls and burner in the front section. He thinks the elastomer gasket needs replacement as well as seals on the sections.





My concerns:

1. The plumber did not do a boiler fill test, he just removed side cover for inspection. Is that enough to diagnose correctly?

2. If we open up the boiler and instead of failed seals, the plumber finds a crack or hole above the water line? What then? I would hate for our 20 tenants to remain without heat for too long.



Thank you for any advice or plumber recommendation for a second opinion.

We are located in Hudson County, NJ.

nicholas bonham-carter

Leaking gaskets?

The overfilled boiler test is the best way to detect leaks I know off.

If the gaskets are determined to have failed, I wonder if the joint faces have not been corroded, making it difficult to reseal. Possibly new sections will be needed. This would be the time to correct any mis-piped steam headers so as to follow the manufacturers specifications.

How long has this situation been going on? Post some more pictures of the boiler, as there must be something amiss with the original installation to have made it fail 20 years early.--NBC

icesailor

Leaking:

Well, I'm not there, and I don't know what your "plumber" thought he was looking at, but it sure looks like a leaker to me.

And what does he plan to do when he removes all that stuff to have a look/see? Leave it off until he gets the parts? NBC is right, the faces may be damaged. Many of us have cheap "See Snakes" that we can look inside a boiler to see what we can see.

It looks like you have a serious problem. It needs to be addressed. A plan of action needs to be mapped out or your tenants may be cold at the wrong time of year. It wouldn't take most of us here a day to take the cleanout covers off and have a look/see inside. Flood it to the top and look in.

I was at a hospital boiler room a few weeks ago and that same model boiler was being re-gasketed. There are companies that specialize in this process. If you need that service, you should find one and have them look at it. Or a section may need to be replaced.

Its a slick operation in the hands of experience.

Where are you located?

nicholas bonham-carter

Gasket weaknesses

I suspect that an unstable waterline could cause an early failure of these gaskets by subjecting a fluctuating temperature briefly to the joints just before the lwco shuts off the burner.

Before we discovered how water could "hide" in a horizontal part of the dry return just a few inches above the waterline, we had a level which fluctuated from 3/4 to 1/4 full. Still, we got 35 years out of the old American Standard (push-nipples). We did put a check-valve in the return as a band-aid, as we did not know better!

If I had known then what I know now, we might still have the old girl.--NBC

sreja

re: Losing 9 gals/hr of water. Can it be Elastomer Seal Failure??

Nicholas always has good advice, so I always defer to him -- but I don't understand how you could be losing 7-9 gallons of water at the boiler and not see clear signs of it escaping the boiler.



I'm not saying you don't have a leaking boiler I'm just saying I don't see how you could be losing that much water from a leaking boiler without seeing it in the places you say you're not seeing it.  Are you sure you don't have any buried return lines that could be leaking?

SWEI

DHW pump

looks like it may be cast iron?

Benny_2

water loss of 60 gals per day

We noticed the water loss late October when we started the heating season. All return piping is visible in the basement except about 5 feet of pipe which lies under a ramp. Although there is an outside chance that there might be a leak there, isn't it unlikely.



The puzzling part to me is that in cold days we are losing up to 60 gallons of water per day, as I said earlier, around 7 to 9 gals per hour. BUT there is absolutely no sign of water or steam around the boiler, even now with the side cover off, aside from a few streaks of water. Wouldn't there be more signs on the side of the boiler, with all that water lost since mid-October??? Could 60 gallons of water per day be lost in steam through the seals?



We are located in Hudson County, New Jersey.

BobC

Flood the boiler

You might not really see steam escaping up the chimney (but that would be a lot of steam) till a really cold day and being in NJ you might not have seen one yet. Be very certain that you don't have any buried returns on this boiler because that would be the first place to look.



It might be worthwhile flooding the boiler and looking in the combustion chamber after a few hours to see if there is any water. The boiler would have to be off for this period of time.



Bob

Benny_2

Losing 60 gals of water per day

Could we have such a big hole/crack in our 12 year-old boiler? We are still able to build enough pressure to heat the fourth floor apartments.



I guess before opening up the boiler we should first flood the boiler and next check those 5 feet of pipe buried under the concrete ramp. Funny that the plumber who checked our system did not think it important to do the above.



Any recommendations for a good steam plumber in the North Jersey area?

Jamie Hall

That is a horrifying amount of water...

to be losing, and it is assuredly going somewhere.  My first bet would be either the seals or a hole in the boiler; my second choice would be that buried return.  Either way, that's a tremendous amount of water to be losing, relatively speaking, and you really do need to find out why.



The overfill test is the first one I'd do -- and it's the simplest one.  But don't just look for water inside the firebox and outside the boiler; take note of the water level: it shouldn't drop.  I don't suppose you have a handy valve on the returns so you can isolate the boiler completely from the piping... that may be too much to hope for.  But if you do, and you close that valve, and the water level still drops... it's in the boiler or near boiler piping.  If the water level doesn't drop, then it may well be in the return.



As has been said, you may not necessarily see a cloud of steam, except on colder damper days.



And the pressure thing is always instructive: the ability to heat the upstairs radiators doesn't mean you don't have a leak!  Remember that steam goes to where it condenses -- and it will quite cheerfully go all though your system, and heat you remarkably well (if rather inefficiently) even if there is a good size steam leak in the boiler.

ChrisJ

Losing water

I don't know your plumber, for all I know he could be great with steam.

That said, the only advice I could really feel good about giving is contact Jstar "Joe Starosielec" on this forum.  He is in NJ and does fantastic work on steam systems.  You will at least know that what he tells you is really what should be done.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/professional/432/ecuacool-LLC

nicholas bonham-carter

Some thoughts

I think your boiler is about 500,000 btu, so for the replacement (if necessary ), you could install the first of 2 smaller boilers, sized correctly to the load, and run off the new number 1, while removing and replacing the original boiler, with number 2.

The advantage would be a staged firing of boilers when you are done.

This would also be time to think about converting to gas.

To save time, flood the boiler well before your steam pro arrives, so he can have a look as soon as he arrives.--NBC

Benny_2

Where could 75 gals per day be going?

Thanks everyone for your responses and NBC for the suggestions.



I called Weil Mclain’s tech support this morning because I can’t get my head around the 60 to 75 gallons of daily water loss we are experiencing with NO apparent signs. Even the outside of our boiler (pics above) should have more signs of that big of a water loss, right?



They were surprised that a 75 gallon water (whole day) loss left no visible signs. They also said that elastomer seal failure was an uncommon occurrence for our 88 series boiler.



Next step is finding another plumber in my North Jersey area to help us solve this problem.

SWEI

North Jersey

http://www.heatinghelp.com/professional/432/ecuacool-LLC

BobC

Turn the water off and watch

The meter on your water feeder may be less than accurate. If you can spend several hours by the boiler turn the valve that feeds the auto feeder off and see if you notice a decrease in the water level.



I am still very suspicious of that buried return because that's about the only place that much water could be going without leaving a trace IF the meter is indeed accurate. The boiler looks like it's in tough shape at this point, if it has to be replaced, make sure you get a good steam pro to do it.



Bob

Benny_2

Water meters

We have two water meters on the boiler, an original analog one and a digital one recently installed to relay info to our new heat controller with internet connection. Both meters are showing the water loss although the analog is reading about 10 percent higher water loss than the digital (puzzling unless the digital is more accurate????).

c.t.kay

Water loss

I believe that I suggested that you replace the buried steam return a while ago.

Replacing the return will eliminate the possibility of a return leak as there is only one spot in the building with buried returns. After replacement of the return piping, clock the water meter and let everyone know the results.

Benny_2

Buried pipe

Thank you c.t.kay for your response.



On recent colder days when the heat has been on for approx. 7 hours, the meter has shown a water loss of 82 gallons/day. That “buried” pipe measuring about 5 feet is encased in cement (it lays on a cement floor with a cement ramp built above it. The pipe is not lying on dirt but on cement.) Everything around it is dry.



How likely do you think it is for an average of 60-70 gallons of water per day for the past few weeks to be “absorbed” from a leak there?



Because the repipe is not so straight forward, before going ahead, I would like to understand if a leak there is likely.

ChrisJ

Concrete

Is very porous, it is in no way a water barrier.



Either the water is going up the chimney, out air vents, out radiator seals or out leaky pipes and or joints. If the boiler is always hot, it could be leaking from a valve or fitting on the block and simply evaporating.



Mr Scott isn't beaming it up to the Enterprise.



I have to be honest though, 60 gallons a day would make a really humid basement in my opinion. I vote buried return or up the chimney.

c.t.kay

Water loss

The replacement of the return eliminates it from leaking, 2 - 21/2 " adapters, 1 elbow and some pipe. I would then look at the piping to the indirect tanks, you are pumping boiler water from below and above the water line directly to the tanks, this could have something to do with the water loss. To hydro the boiler you have to split the piping or isolate the near boiler to pressurize the boiler. lots more work than replacing some pipe, do the easy things first. If the water loss continues go to the next step, we can't see the old steel pipe in the concrete for the 10' +/- buried there.

Benny_2

RE: buried return pipe

I will follow your expert advice c.t. kay, and have the plumber repipe that buried pipe as the first step.

As for your reference to the piping to the indirect tanks possibly having to do with the water loss, I'm at a total loss there. The plumber who came to the building, I don't even think looked at that piping. I'm losing all trust in his judgement.