How much water do you use?

ChrisJ

I wish there was a way to do a poll ont his forum.

I'm curious how much water everyone goes through with their system.  Of course system size and type probably has a lot to with it as well.  I don't beleive I have any problems with loss, but I figured this thread may help others out who think adding water once a week or even every day is normal.



I have an EG-45 connected to 392sqft via single pipe.  3 Gorton 1s on one main and a single Hoffman 4A on the other and Hoffman 1As (UGH..) on rads in a very drafty 1700sqft house.

So far, I'm getting close to 2 months and my water level has dropped very little, maybe 1/4" on the gauge glass.  Have not had to add water as I usually go just above the recommended NWL and then let it drop some before adding, I'm currently at the recommended NWL.

Weather has been cool here though not terrible, this week is going to be pretty chilly.



I maintain 70f or sometimes 71f on days like today where its windy out.  At night I drop it down to 68F and then go back to 70f in the morning.

Jamie Hall

Not that much...

You can see the details of my system in my signature.  It has been two years since Charles Garrity installed the boiler, and except for routine blowdowns (perhaps a gallon every two week) and the summer flush -- 10 gallons, maybe --



I have used...



NO WATER!  Yes there is a meter on the automatic feeder.  It's getting bored... so is the feeder...



I might add that the rest of the system other than the boiler is all Hoffman, and was installed in 1930 and is untouched...

Maine Vent

I'll keep you updated

Hi Chris,

Thanks for info on the tablets, I'll give them a try after the Holidays.



I have auto water feeder also, 000 as of today.



On my old Burnham, I would go to 999 at least once a heating season. You can see the holes in this 6 section I had.



I'll post if I add any water.

ChrisJ

What type of system?

Jamie,

Is that a vapor system?

jumper

details please

Jamie Hall, Maine Vent, please describe your systems. My mentor claimed that good steam heating should not have automatic make up water. He didn't like pumps because seals use water. On the other hand he liked hot water heating because you can't screw up pipe slopes.

ChrisJ

auto feeder

Jumper,



I believe Jamie and Maine vent use the auto feeders only for emergencies, and they are the VXT type.



I my self also have an autofeeder, though mine is on a shelf in the basement. I was either going to do a VXT which I couldn't afford, or none at all so none it is.

Hap_Hazzard

What kind of feeder do you have?

I like the VXT too, but if I'd had a different kind on the shelf I would have used it.



I haven't added any water yet either.

ChrisJ

water feeder

Its the typical McDonnell & Miller type. I have a probe type hydrolevel LWCO and as far as I know, using the two together can result in a flooded boiler if the power goes out, or is at least a risk.



The only benefit of the autofeeder I can see is when we go away on vacation it would allow the heat to continue working if something leaks.

Jamie Hall

Yes it is

a vapour system -- actually a rather late install for them (1930).  All the original Hoffman stuff is there.  There are a couple of traps which are weak, but the variable orifice radiator valves are properly calibrated so that isn't a problem, so long as the pressure stays down.  Which it does -- the Differential Loop keep the delta pressure (steam main to return difference) from ever getting above about 7 ounces or so, and the vapourstat keeps the system pressure to atmosphere below 6 ounces anyway...

Jamie Hall

VXT

operating off a McDonnell Miller float type LWCO/control.  I've checked it; it does work.  It just never has to.  There is also a lower level manual reset probe type LWCO.



Some folks dislike autofeeders, on the grounds that they can effectively conceal leaks, particularly if they don't have flow meters on them or if nobody ever looks at the flow meter.  On the other hand, if you do not have an auto feeder, and you or your building super isn't at there for a few days or a week, and you do have a leak, you wind up with no heat -- which in this climate or further north, can be a VERY expensive catastrope.



There are no pumps...

Maine Vent

Jumper

Weil Mclean SGO 4 section wet based steamer, with a Riello gas gun. VXT Hydrolevel water make up system. I have this VXT 24 on 2 boilers, my last was a Burnham V7 6 section that for 10 years was losing water with just a manual make up system "which was me opening a ball valve and adding water.

Well it got a point where I needed 24 hour a day "Auto Fill" because this boiler would use 1500 gallons or more of water per season. See my pictures below on the OLD BOILER link on picassa.



So I had a company install this Hydrolevel and it has worked overtime for me on that old system.



We installed it on this new boiler, and once again, last heating season I think it added about 1-2 gallons all heating season here in Maine.



This year we have not had the cold weather yet here so the system is not on full steam yet.



My piping at the radiators has all been tighten up, my valve seats have been tighten up, I feel like I will get minimal loss of water.



I keep a close eye on my water quality and level, my condensate seems to eventually make its way back into the boiler.



Time will tell if this VXT will perform when it is needed.

sreja

re: How much water do you use?

I'm absolutely gutted to say that the boiler in our building (5 story, 140 radiators), can lose up to 5-10 gallons EVERY DAY.



In the few years since I discovered Dan's books and began posting on the wall, we have brought our heating system up to absolutely amazing condition, with TRV's on every radiator, new traps in the entire system, new insulation, a Tekmar 279 control system, pressuretrols, a VXT feeder/meter, etc.



The system works like an absolute DREAM and provides amazing and efficient heat to the building now.



BUT the water loss... the water loss.. It absolutely kills me that we are losing so much water.  5-10 gallons a day.



Unfortunately we have buried returns in this 1929 building, and the returns are deep under the very heavy concrete floor of the lobby, which is a beautiful Terrazzo flooring.



We know it's the buried returns leaking (nothing going up the flu, etc.), we just can't figure out a way to find precisely where the return leak(s) are happening, and can't figure out an economical way to do so and fix them.



It seems like the economical solution in this case is simply to live with the reduced life of the boiler.  Still keeps me up at night but can't think of a viable solution..

SWEI

piping under terrazzo floor

Can you get to both ends of the run?  A pipe bursting head and hydraulics may do the trick.



We replaced 42' of 6" cast iron buried 10+ feet below a terrazzo lobby last year.

sreja

re: How much water do you use?

Unfortunately no such luck..  there are several return lines that drop straight down on one side of the building, then must travel 20-40 feet and meet up somewhere underneath the lobby, and then travel another 20-40 feet to the boiler room.



There are actually 4-5 return condensate lines coming into the boiler room from different areas of the building, and this is the only one that is buried underground, but several smaller return lines combine somewhere under the lobby it seems.



The return line coming into the boiler room is actually inside a 6 inch pipe but we don't know how far that 6inch pipe container goes -- obviously not far enough to where the leaking water is running inside it, since there is no sign of it.



There are a few things we could try to but the cost-benefit seems hard to justify.



One would be to try to identify which return lines that go into the floor on the other side of the lobby (before they merge underground and travel to the boiler room) might be leaking.. it could be all, or it could be one.



Another would be to try to scope that 6inch pipe container as far as we could to see if there is anything to be seen.



I talked about possibilities with the heating guy who does our steam work -- he didn't seem to think there was much likelyhood of success -- ditto with trying to thermal image the lobby to find the source of leak..  Of course he also thought it was no big deal to be losing 10 gallons a day of water so it's been kind of an uphill battle to get anyone concerned about this loss of water other than me..

SWEI

pump it up and over?

Is there an overhead route?

sreja

re: How much water do you use?

I suppose theoretically it's possible, but remember what I said about there actually being quite a few different places where the return lines go into the concrete floor before they eventually meet up somewhere under the lobby.  So there are really several different lines to deal with..



Don't you think at a certain point the "best" and most economical solution is simply to live with the water loss and the resulting decrease in boiler life? After lots of tossing and turning that's the conclusion I've come to.



A few additional items:



1. I've asked but never really gotten anyone here to give me any kind of

estimate about how many years this would likely take off of the boiler's

life, something that would be useful to know..

2. We have talked about the issue before, and one suggestion, counter-intuitive as it may sound, was to drain some water more regularly from the boiler, to reduce build up of bad stuff collecting in the water.  The water is always rusty so that's some evidence that the make up water is having a negative effect unfortunately.

3. So I said 5-10 gallons a day.. Actually I can be a little more specific about the amount of water lost because of the VXT digital water meter and the Tekmar controller, and say that we are losing a little less than 1 gallon of water for every hour that the boiler runs.  (We have a big boiler, a Peerless 211A-8, which holds about 90 gallons of water and is serving over 100 radiators).

ChrisJ

losing water

Wait, it loses 1 gallon for every hour that it runs? I would expect, if it was a leaking return that it would leak 24\7 whether the boiler is running or not.

sreja

re: How much water do you use?

I think this is just a case of misunderstanding what I'm saying.



What I'm saying is that at the end of any given *week*, i can see how much make up water was added and how many hours the boiler ran, and when you look at these long term averages, we are losing, on average, a little less than 1 gallon of water for every hour that the boiler is firing.



And let me just reiterate, we have checked thoroughly for the possibility the boiler itself is leaking or for steam going up the flu. no such luck.

SWEI

bad stuff in water

Oxygen is very bad stuff.

ChrisJ

leaks

I don't know if its typical, but the boiler that was in this house when I bought it, a Burnham V8 series had its block rott out twice in less than 10 years. The first one only lasted 3 and then the second one lasted 5.



This is due to leaks.



Replacing blocks every 3-5 years doesn't sound cheaper to me.

sreja

re: How much water do you use?

If the boiler really did rot out every 3-5 years that would be devestating and would change the economics of the choices.



But this really just does emphasize something I've been saying all along, which is that while EVERYONE agrees that the oxygen brought it by make up water is BAD for the boiler and can decrease it's lifespan.. Absolutely no one (and I've asked on this site quite a lot) seems to have the slightest idea of really what kind of decrease in lifespan we are talking about..



If our water loss rates decrease the life of our boiler from 20 years to 15 years (providing we blow it down often), well then the economically rational thing for us to do is probably to live with the water loss.



But if the water loss rates mean that instead of our boiler surviving 20 years it's going to survive 5 years, then the economics completely change, and we're better off borrowing $30,000 and tearing up the building to repipe everything.



But no one seems to know.  Given that, I think the answer is probably simply to wait and see how long the current boiler lasts and then we'll have at least 1 data point.



---



ps. I've said this many times, but if i've learned one lesson from managing a building, working with contractors, hanging at at heatinghelp,com, it's this:  It's relatively easy to figure out how the correct/perfect system should be designed.  It's a whole different ball game trying to figure out what's "acceptable" and how much time+money to spend correcting imperfections.  That's something that is incredibly difficult to get good answers to.

ChrisJ

Fresh water sitting

is absolutely the worst.



Please keep us updated with how the boiler is doing. How long as this one been there so far?

sreja

re: How much water do you use?

The boiler is about 5 years old.  No idea how old the previous one was or how well it was cared for -- that's before my time.



As I said earlier -- when we discussed the issue of excessive make up water in the past, we had a very useful discussion here and the consensus seemed to be that we should drain more water more frequently from the boiler to help eliminate the build up of the "bad stuff" that comes from the constant influx of fresh make up water.



I didn't mean to hijack this new thread! Here's the main older thread where we discussed the water loss issue:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/138968/Steam-system-losing-water-a-new-question-for-an-age-old-problem

jumper

condition water?

If you have room you can degas & even demineralize make up. So many industrial users add chemicals and blowdown often. But it seems to me that they're still shooting air & CO2 into their whole system.



In your building. sreja, have you explored the possibility of intercepting the returns up higher and switching to dry return ? Then you won't need buried large pipes. Also I don't understand the layout. Is your boiler room on same level as lobby ?

sreja

re: How much water do you use?

The idea de-oxygenating  the makeup water prior to it entering the boiler was one i looked into -- it seemed like a tempting idea.. unfortunately i didn't come up with anything useful.



it would be quite easy for us to take the make up water off the hot water loop if that would help, but i don't think it would?



As for intercepting returns higher up.. Unfortunately the boiler room is about 5 feet lower than the lobby, and there is an apartment at lobby level with maybe 5 radiators in it as well as a return main.



The building is built with 10" concrete slab floors pipes laid in the concrete.  Solid as a rock but pretty much a nightmare in terms of maintenance.



The steam mains go up from the boiler room 5 stories straight up and then branch out in the attic and them come down through the apartments around the perimeter.



A quarter of the building has returns that come down through the floor of that lobby (ground) level apartment and go under the lobby floor to the boiler room -- perhaps 5 different return condensate pipes spread out over 800 sqft.  And there is no downhill path from that corner of the building to the boiler room except under the lobby floor.

jumper

hot water is better

You can mount a vented tank high in the boiler room. Supply it with hot water through a float valve. Even better is to replace the vent with a vacuum generator. Water powered ejector; compressed air power ejector, even an oilless pump. Anything that reduces CO2 preserves boiler and, more important, those condensate return lines.

Hap_Hazzard

Just don't run it through an auto-feeder.

This has been found to cause the valves to leak. Apparently it's mineral deposits rather than the heat itself that does them in.

Mark N

Water Loss

I have a Burnham IN-4. Burnham is quite restrictive on the amount of make up water. According to the manual it should be 1 gallon per year or less. I've repacked and tightened all the hand valves. The unions on all the the rads have been cleaned and are as tight as I can get them. I've not noticed any leaks at the vents, but my pressure is low. Might need to crank it up to see any leaks. My water loss averages about 1/8" a month in the gauge glass. I've never actually drained off that amount of water and measured how much it is. At the beginning of each month I flush the mud leg and replace the water. I have a log book at the boiler and record when I flush and add water. I boil the water right after it is added. My original boiler lasted 75 years in this house and was replaced 4 years ago. Only was replaced because I converted to gas.

I do not have an auto feeder as I see no reason to have one. If you don't have buried returns there are only a few places that you can leak steam or water. Fix them and you should be fine. There will always be slight losses from evaporation in a steam system.

sreja

re: How much water do you use?

It's really important to me that I get something clarified..



Someone just posted something that suggested that not just the boiler would suffer from excess make-up water, but also the condensate return lines (and therefore i assume the entire system piping).



My understanding is that the extra feed water (due to water loss from a leak in buried returns) would only be harming the boiler, since the oxygen and minerals are boiled off and left in the boiler, and not carried with the steam, and so are never harming the condensate return lines.



Can someone clarify that for me?  It makes an insanely huge difference in terms of the danger of excess feed water.  It's one thing to lose some years of life off the boiler -- it would be something else entirely to think that the entire condensate piping is being compromised..

Hap_Hazzard

Typical McDonnell-Miller water feeder

If it's the typical model WFE, it uses the same valve as the VXT, and this valve needs current to open, so I don't see how it could stay open if you lose power. I don't know much about their other models though.

ChrisJ

flooding.

A video from Gerry Gill



http://youtu.be/XsAG_cmv2Iw

nicholas bonham-carter

excessive fresh water

i think only the wet return, and the boiler will be affected by rust.

why not start a new thread for your particular case, and see if there would be an overhead route. the lines might not necessarily have to be the same full size as the present pipes, but would have to remain separate until they drop below the waterline.

unfortunately, it is a ticking rust bomb with a fuse of unknown duration.--nbc

sreja

re: How much water do you use?

I don't get it.



How can the wet return be affected by the excess oxygenated water but not the entire return line system?



Either the oxygenated water is creating stuff that is being carried through the pipes and damaging the entire piping of the entire steam system, OR it's localized in the boiler after being boiled and doesn't travel with the steam.



I don't see a scenario where there is rust/chemicals/etc being carried by the steam but not harming anything until it gets to the wet return..



  Right?



ps. As an aside -- we have a condensate tank+pump so I guess we don't really have much of a wet return to speak of.

Mark N

CO2

The CO2 in the condensate forms carbonic acid which eats the pipes in the wet returns. Also the fly ash in the concrete can eat the returns. The returns will never get better only worse. Eventually none of the condensate coming from these returns will get back to the boiler. Doing nothing solves nothing. The repair will cost what it costs and I doubt it will be cheaper in the future. I agree it would be a shame to rip up a terrazzo floor but it might be the only way to fix it right.

ChrisJ

Adding water

Just added water for the first time since the first week of November.  Between I also took a few samples to check PH and lost some when I just changed two air vents.  Sure, very little but every drop counts, right?



I could have went longer, but we are going a way for new years and wanted to be sure the boiler had plenty of water, suppose to get down to 14F here friday night.



As I said earlier, I typically fill a bit above the NWL and then let it run a little below it then refill.  I give it around 1/2" of range or so.  Of course, I wait until I hear the t-stat click calling for heat and then I run down and fill.  This way it sits as little as possible before boiling.

ChrisJ

more water

Well I just had to add some water after only 2 weeks of use or so.  Kind of concerned though the only thing I changed was I switched out 6 Hoffman 1A vents for Gorton's which solved a venting issue.  Can't any other leaks, all packing nuts are tight and the vents all seem to work good.

I can only assume the usuage is due to cooler weather.



Opinions?   Please keep in mind this is a single pipe system, not sure if that matters but I assume it does.

BobC

about 1/2"

i add 1/2" of water every 3-4 weeks and have no signs of stem or valve leaking. This is a little less than the v75 used but not much.



Bob

ChrisJ

1/2"

Hi Bob,



That makes me feel better. I probably added around 1/4" after 2 weeks as I try not to let it get too low. Then again I guess "too low" is when the LWCO trips, technically eh?

ToddB

Water

I have a single pipe system and use about an 1/8" on average per week regardless of temperature. The water level usually drops within 2 days after it is topped off and stays at that level for the remainder of the week. I can't find any obvious connection/valve steam leaks, so it is probably released from the radiator vents. I have been thinking about changing to Vent-Rite No. 1 radiator vents rather than the Hoffman 1As that I am currently using.

Hap_Hazzard

Video

He's saying you shouldn't use a mechanical water feeder with an electronic LWCO. Doesn't matter who its made by. You can use a Hydrolevel feeder with a McDonnell Miller probe type LWCO, as he shows in the video, or with a McDonnell Miller float type LWCO, like Jamie does, or a Hydrolevel LWCO, like I do, but you can also use a McDonnell Miler WFE series water feeder in those same scenarios. You just can't use a mechanical water feeder--McDonnell Miller or otherwise--with a probe-type LWCO.

ChrisJ

mechanical

Mine is a mechanical type I think?, it was originally used with a float type LWCO on the last boiler. I now have a probe type LWCO. Its just a PCB with I think a solenoid valve. Maybe I'm assuming the wrong thing?