Should we not replace the boiler?

mskalinin

Hi everyone! I lurk here a lot, but don't post much.



So the nightmare scenario happened with us. We moved into our house in summer 2011. There is a 1994 boiler here, so we are thinking it should last at LEAST 5 years, right?



Well after we moved in I got the books from here (We Got Steam Heat, Lost Art of Steam Heating) and read them all the way through. I started inspecting the system to see what may be going on with it. The radiators are pretty much all too large for the rooms they're in, there is little insulation on the pipes, and what is there is asbestos. There are no main vents, most of the valve stems are missing the heads to turn them. Some of the vents are clogged or stuck (we replaced some) and some rooms are perpetually cold.



But the most recent and by far the most "interesting" discovery has been that there are copper pipes on all the near boiler piping! You can see where its been soldered onto the original piping, most is on the wet return side but some is on the heat side. Gah!



Well it all came to a head last night, we heard our automatic feeder feeding WAY too much water into the boiler. We went downstairs to check it out, it was gushing water. Turns out the castings have completely rotted through. The piping inside is all copper, too.



So my question that I am pondering... is it worth it to have a new boiler put in? Or should we switch to something more energy efficient, like the zone heating wall-mounted systems I have seen advertised. I am nostalgic about steam heat but at the same time I am trying to be economical and rational. If we are going to spend $5000 Iwant to make sure to consider all possibilities. Opinions?

BobC

Be careful

I've lived with steam for 65+ years so i may be a bit biased. I've found it to quiet and economical for the most part. I like it cool and I was burning about 400 gallons a season in a 90 year old house (about 1,100 st ft two story) with insulation in the attic but none in the walls. I installed a new gas fired boiler this year and my costs have fallen by 51% so the new boiler will pay for itself.



If you switch away from steam it could cost a boatload of cash because you might have to replace all the radiators and piping, going from 2 PSI to 20 can stress everything. You would have to add return piping for all the radiators unless it's a two pipe steam. We don't talk prices here but that could cost 3X more than just putting in a new boiler by the time your finished with new piping and repairing and ceilings and walls that have to be opened.



If you decide to switch get firm prices for converting and ask them what it would add if you have to replace everything so you won't be blindsided because you won't know if it works and is leak free till the conversion is done. Don't shop price, get someone who will stand behind his work and knows what he is doing.



If you stick with steam select the installer carefully, the boiler has to be piped per the manufacturers requirements in steel threaded pipe on the steam side, copper is fine on the return side. Also have him install main vents for you and check that all the piping is properly sloped.



In either case go with a gas system if you can, it's a lot cheaper than oil.



Bob

JStar

Boiler

On the bright side, you now get to install a new, efficient steam boiler, and have it operate the way it's supposed to. A boiler usually rots out for a reason. Copper piping has a tendency to leak...A LOT. Then the feeder adds fresh water every day, and eats away the inside of the boiler.



Use this time to do your research. Choose a steam contractor first. Then go over the details. Don't settle for any contractor who doesn't work on and understand steam.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

There is not much more efficient than steam...

when it has been restored to proper functioning.  If all or most of your system piping is in place and hasn't been hacked,  a new steam boiler is a very good choice, along with the standard tweaks and piping corrections near the boiler.    I have 8,000 to 10,000 sq ft homes with no insulation with bills that top out at only $700.00 midwinter with steam heat in Chicago.  All steam heating systems can be converted to room by room control.  One pipe steam is especially easy...about 10 minutes a radiator.

A properly functioning steam heating system should use about 20% less gas and 98% less electricity than a typical new forced air system ( Department of Energy has done testing, as have other independent agencies). If you go hot water, you will gain some gas efficiency with condensing boilers but electrical use will be way higher and so will ongoing repairs and likely much shorter life.   A properly maintained steam boiler should last 30 years, well maintained units 40 to 50 years.  That life equals  2 to 3 high efficiency boilers and 5 to 6 furnaces.   Also, with forced air, room by room zoning becomes challenging.

mskalinin

Not wanting to shange infrastructure

I am not really interested in switching to another major type of heating system (ie: Forced Air or Hot water), but was thinking more along the lines of the ductless systems that I have seen in the last few years (many are Japanese companies off the top of my head).



We live in a pretty rural area in upstate NY and don't have a lot of choice on steam heating contractors. We have a maintenance plan with the local big-wig company and they seem to be pretty reliable. They just sent me a quote on an 82% efficient boiler that will cost us over (removed).



There are programs in NYS to mitigate some of the costs, and I think their quote includes fixing the leak we have in one of the feeder pipes. But its just a bit overwhelming. I can see most here are recommending sticking with getting a boiler. I was told by the contractor that 82% is about as efficient as they are made, is this the case?



Thanks for the help!

Charlie from wmass

Price is not discussed here, but

we do discuss what needs to be included in your installation. This includes iron piping, doing it to manufacturers specs, and properly sizing the boiler. Where are you in NY. I just did a boiler this fall in Chatham, NY.

mskalinin

Sorry about the pricing

sorry I forgot about the pricing rule. I was just surprised how off I was in what I was expecting and what the reality is. I'm in the finger lakes. The contractor is coming over on Saturday to discuss the proposal. Any suggestions on what we should make sure to ask?

Rod

Replacing the Boiler

Hi- One of the rules on this board is that we don't discuss pricing so we can't comment on the prices you were quoted. Where exactly are you located? There are other homeowners on this website who live in upstate New York who might be able to give you a lead to a good local pro who understands steam heating.  You might also post some pictures of your boiler and the radiators so we can get a better idea of what is involved to replace your present boiler. Is your present boiler oil or gas? If oil, is natural gas available? Don't get too hung up on the published efficiency. Modern systems are some what more efficient but the published efficiency is under ideal conditions .The real efficiency of these systems is quite a bit less and when you factor in shorter life cycle of the boiler and the extra maintenance required, it goes a long way to balancing out efficiency differences.

- Rod

Charlie from wmass

keep Dan's book on the kitchen table in plain sight

Dan has a check list. Go to the link below and reread. Keep us posted.

 http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/236/For-Homeowners/1490/How-to-have-a-boiler-replaced-without-getting-steamed

mskalinin

Competition

Thanks for the suggestions on Dan's list, I will make sure to have that memorized haha. I did manage to find some other contractors in the area and am in the process of setting up appointments with them to get proposals.



If a contractor is here and does not seem like he is intending to measure the radiators, is that something I should ask him to do? Or should I just let him do what he does and then take his lack of measuring into account when making my choice?

Charlie from wmass

Let them do it their way

It indicates how they will do any of their work. Finger lakes are a bit of a haul for me, but if all else fails I would not be opposed to entertaining the idea. id you try the find a contractor section up top of the page yet?

mskalinin

no one

Tried the Find a Contractor. No one within 50 miles. We'll see how the appointments go!

Charlie from wmass

try 100 miles

I often travel that far and so do many of the other steam guys.

jumper

much as I like steam

You don't know the condition of the rest of your system. So I'd look at heat pumps. I presume natural gas is unavailable.

Enreynolds

I am

in the Rochester NY area.  The best contractor I have found for steam heating is

 Buckpitt and Co.

88 University Ave.



Rochester, N.Y. 14605



Phone: 585-454-7474



Fax: 585-454-2379



Talk to Jim Buckpitt.  He has helped greatly over the years.



Eric

mskalinin

Update

Thanks Eric for the recommendation, we will give him a call.



I just had a meeting with one company's installer. There were some good and some not-so-good things but I think it went better all in all than the first person who came to look at the system.



The first quote we got, the person who came looked at our boiler and basically started asking me questions about income and told me about rebates from the state we could utilize. Then he sent me a quote based on the size of the boiler we already have installed, never measured or even looked at any of our radiators.



Today, the person took pictures of all radiators, measured all of them and recorded all this information. Did a quick calc and said we would need a boiler between 50-75 BTU. Currently we have a 150 BTU installed. I asked him if this could be the cause of the short cycling we experienced and he said quite likely.



I asked him about the copper piping we have near the boiler, he said shouldn't be a problem and that they have been doing that for 15 years on residential installs. I asked on both the wet return and the feed side? He said, generally yes, but that if we do not want copper we can just say so and they won't use it. He said they don't use copper on commercial installs but on residential they have never had a problem with it.



He asked us which brands we were thinking about, I said I didn't really know one brand to the next. He also said he would do some calcs, have a specialist check them, then an engineer checks his proposal before it is sent to us. He said he would add 30% to the 50 BTU he calc'ed, so he would be sizing for a 65 BTU system.



He also showed us some quick things we could look into while the system is off to assess the radiators themselves (such as taking the valves out and checking for buildup and rust). So far, a better feeling than the first company.

Rod

Rochester Area Steam Pro

Hi-  For a steam pro you might try contacting Patrick McGrath as he is in your area and found a good steampro. Here is a link to one of his posts. Click on his name and the click on the "Contact User " button and that will tell you how to email him.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/136352/A-long-time-coming#p1231117



He had a Smith G8 with a Carlin power burner installed.. Both the Smith G8 and the Slantfin Intrepid are wet based boilers and are normally configured with oil burners. Smith and Slantfin also have certified them  for gas. The consensus of the pros on this board is that with a gas power burner, they are very efficient, probably in the upper 80 percentile range. However the official efficiency rating is only with oil as the companies didn't bother having them officially efficiency rated for gas. Both the Smith G8 and the Slantfin boilers are very good boilers.



There is a lot of discussion on these units on the Wall. Use the “Search the Wall” button and the words Slant fin Intrepid or Smith G8 and that should get you a lot of past posts on the subject.

Here’s a couple of them:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/142556/NG-fired-steam-boiler-recommendation



http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/132132/Slantfin-Smith-G-8-power-burner-question



Another thing I might mention is that if you go with the Carlin Burner, there is an optional acoustical cover which, from the Wall reports, really quiets them down. Apparently the covers are much better priced if you include them with the burner package.

- Rod

mskalinin

Thanks

I contacted the guy you linked, hopefully can get some good info. Also, thanks for the information on the boiler, we will see what we are offered and ask if they work with these.

Rod

Replacement Notes

Hi- Anyone who gives you an estimate based on the size of your old boiler doesn’t know what they are doing!  If your present boiler was not properly sized then all this method would do it continue the mistakes of the past. The radiators’ total  EDR must be measured and the boiler matched to that measurement. +  the “pickup factor”. If they do measure the radiators, ask to see their computations and have them go over them with you. It might not be a bad idea to do you own figures. I’ve attached a work sheet below that shows you how to find your radiators’ EDR



Copper isn’t an option for pipes carrying steam. They need to be done in black pipe with threaded joints!  Copper can be used on non steam carrying pipes like the Wet Return.



Steam pipes and radiators are generally pretty clean as they are constantly getting “steam cleaned”. The return piping below the boiler’s waterline level (especially the Wet Return)  is the piping most likely to be clogged up as this is the low point in the system so dirt and rust tend to settle there. Any quote should include the inspection, cleaning /replacement of the Wet Return.



Make of boiler- Unfortunately a lot of installers select the make of the boiler based on the one where they can charge the biggest profit margin. Ask them why they choose that boiler and what other boiler options you have.



Make sure the quote includes installing a pipe nipple and a valve to the skim port. Also ask if the quote includes “skimming”



The following links are to articles/videos that may be of help to you:

Video on the Importance of Boiler Piping Configuration

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/107/Steam-Heating/118/Steam-boiler-near-boiler-piping



Replacing a Boiler Article

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/236/For-Homeowners/1490/How-to-have-a-boiler-replaced-without-getting-steamed



Steam Heating Primer

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/321/Steam-Heating-Basics/128/A-Steam-Heating-Primer



Boiler Ratings Explained

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/364/Boilers/143/Boiler-Ratings-Explained



If you have any questions don’t hesitate to ask and we’ll do our best to answer them for you.

- Rod

mskalinin

Charts

The chart you linked for boiler sizing is the exact one he used here. He showed me while he did it, so that was nice.



So I should definitely insist on steel on the steam carrying pipes? I will inform him as much. We have copper piping there currently, soldered onto the older steel pipes. He said they will be removing all the near boiler piping, but I am not sure how near the boiler that includes.



I haven't had a lot of luck getting any other contractors around here to come take a look. We chose a bad time to lose the boiler as we are leaving town Christmas day. Looks like space heating for the foreseeable future.



Edit: I did a calc myself and came up with 46080 BTU, so seems like we definitely have an over-sized boiler.



Also wanted to ask what the difference is between a hot water boiler and steam boiler. Can one boiler service either a steam system or a hot water system? Or are there boilers specifically for steam and then specifically for hot water?



We do have natural gas here, I keep forgetting to answer that question. Its nat gas fired.

Rod

Boilers

Hi- There are boilers built just for hot water heating and boilers built just for steam. With cast iron boilers, a lot can be used (with the appropriate factory modifications) for both Hot Water or Steam as they both use common castings.  When you read the installation instructions it can sometimes be a bit confusing as they will include instructions for installing both the HW model and the Steam model in the same manual

     When used for hot water, they don’t have a sight glass and generally include a pump and a LWCO designed for Hot Water. The steam configuration includes a LWCO for steam , a sight glass, a pressure controller and a port for skimming. When you decide on a boiler be sure (we can give you a link if needed) to get the I&O (Installation and Operation) Manual and read it over, especially the section on piping a steam boiler. Note both the recommended configuration and pipe sizes. Keep in mind these are the minimum instructions rather the optimum so you might want to tell us what boiler you are planning to use and we can possibly recommend some improvements to optimize the installation.



 Black steel pipe with threaded fittings is a must for steam carrying pipes!



You might want to post some pictures of your present boiler so we can get an idea of how the piping should be run. Take them from back a ways so we can we both the piping connected to the boiler and your steam mains. If we need more detail we can zoom in as necessary,

- Rod

mskalinin

Proposal

So I got a proposal today that I like but I wanted to lay out the highlights here to see what everyone thought.



So, this person had given us an estimate a couple days ago based on a cursory glance at our boiler and piping. The proposal didn't have much info, just an end price which I thought was quite high for the job. It was for a 150k BTU boiler (which is what we have installed now).



Today he came so we could talk about the proposal. Immediately I asked him to please explain where their pricing was coming from. He talked about the brand of the boiler (reassuring they are a good company blah blah), labor costs, what they would be doing, etc. He then mentioned a chimney liner. This would explain the much higher cost on the proposal than I was expecting. I stopped him there and said, "Chimney liner? I didn't realize we needed one." He said his tech who had come the night the boiler went out looked in the chimney and did not see a liner. I took him downstairs to look and there is, in fact a liner. We checked in the attic and it goes all the way through.



I asked him next about the boiler. I asked where he came up with the size. He said it was based on the amount of heat our house needed. I said that I figured we wouldn't need one so big, he asked how I got that, and I told him I measured the radiators. He looked a bit taken aback, but pulled his charts out and asked me to show him which radiator styles I used to calculate. I think he was basing his estimate on what techs said again, and also an energy audit his company had done for us that. When I showed him the style we had and said we only had seven radiators he then went around and counted sections. He revised his proposal again to a 75000 unit (Williamson).



Then I asked about piping. He said he will only install steel piping and does not work with copper, explained that this makes their prices higher but its to code. He also had included in his proposal replacing all the copper piping we have there currently (which is a lot). This also explained some of the pricing. He also said he does not like the configuration of the piping currently. I will try and take pics in the morning so you can see as well.



He also pointed out in the piping that there are no main vents (which I knew already). Part of the proposal was the installation of main venting. I liked that. He also said there is no skimmer, no mud leg. All those things will be installed on the new system. They will show us how to use them properly.



So with the chimney liner removed and with a better sized boiler, I now really like the proposal. All threaded steel pipe, replacing all copper. Main venting installed. Flushing the return pipes, checking all venting on radiators and valves. What do you guys think?

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

boiler sizing chart

there appears to be something ommitted in the sizing chart.....It does not add in the pick up factor for steam.   This is usually 1.33 times the installed radiation.   In other words for steam, the BTU output needs to be 1.33 times the heat output of the radiators, if sizing to conventional standards. 

mskalinin

added 30%

he came up with 50k btu then added 30% for 65k btu. however, the smallest boiler this company makes is 75k.

vaporvac

different boiler?

Could he  perhaps install another brand boiler that more closely matches you edr? On a large boiler that wouldn't be much, but on your size that's a little over 10%.Unless you have a use for those addition btus, or you can down-fire or stage-fire your burner, that's 10% each and everyday As a fellow homeowner, I know there are many boilers to choose from with most of them being very similar. Just make  sure the piping diagram is followed at the very least.

nicholas bonham-carter

source for vents, and boilers etc.

http://www.pexsupply.com/Boilers-449000

i have ordered from them, and had good service, and i see a 65k btu boiler listed.--nbc

Rod

Boiler Rating Charts

Hi- I dug out a pdf on boiler ratings that I sent to someone last summer and have attached the pdf below.  Figuring out boiler ratings is a little confusing at first (at least it was to me when I first started out) and hopefully the pdf makes it a bit easier.

      On the “Replacement Boiler Sizing Chart”-  what figure did you come up with as being the “Total Square Feet of Radiation” (Total EDR) ?  

Just use that figure and compare it to the figures in “ the square ft of steam” column in the I=B=R Net ratings.   The Net IBR ratings already have the “pickup factor” calculated in.

     You can now see why it is very important to do your “homework” on these boiler replacements. Imagine what your situation would be if you had just accepted the original quote with the 150k boiler and hadn’t done the calculation and called them to his attention. You would have ended with another oversized  boiler which burns a more fuel than needed plus a new chimney liner !

     The proposed boiler still seems a bit oversized. As I mentioned above let us know the Total EDR figure and perhaps we can suggest another make /model boiler that will closer match your radiators.



I looked up the manuals for the proposed Williamson boiler. Here are the links:



Brochure:    http://www.williamson-thermoflo.com/en/assets/pdf/en_w_gsa_brochure.pdf



I&O Manual:   http://www.williamson-thermoflo.com/en/assets/pdf/en_w_gas_steam-atmospheric_manual.pdf



When you finally decide what boiler you want, it always pays to get the I&O manual (Installation & Operation) and read it ahead of time especially the piping instructions.

    It might also help if you posted some pictures of your present boiler. Take the pictures from farther back and from different angles around the boiler. Include the boiler and the piping in the picture so we can see trace the attahed piping and how it is configured. If we need detail we can zoom in.

- Rod

mskalinin

Pictures

So it would take me a small novel to write about all the crap I have had to wade through in order to get to a proposal I liked. Long story short, we decided to go with one contractor who, while he was at my house, told me what I wanted to hear and then, when asked for the proposal in writing (after much pressure to "Get going because you're without heat!") provides me with complete crap that is the opposite of what I want.



Its taken about 2 weeks to jump through hoops with this person, lying through his teeth most of the time, but we finally got another contractor in who clearly knew what he was talking about. Very professional and not willing to cut corners for anything. We have a proposal that we love now and even though we are paying double what we would have with the other company, I am feeling confident. Needless to say, we fired the other guy...  and the boiler goes in next week!



So I decided, for posterity, to take some pictures of the old system. Its a doozy. I got Dan's books when we moved into this house less than two years ago and have read through them a few times. I have also lurked here. But I am a complete amateur. That said, even I could see some of the glaring problems with this existing boiler and piping. Thought you might like to see.



I think the first two pictures speak for themselves. In the third you can see all the corrosion on the pipe there. The 4th picture shows a 10' long copper pipe carrying steam, connected to the older steel pipe. Running off to the left are two copper pipes hooked to... baseboard radiators (like in a hot water system) in a part of the house that was an addition! I had always wondered what the heck those baseboard rads were for (they of course never worked) but I figured someone had tried to tie them to the wet return or something. Never imagined they'd be hooked into the steam carrying pipe.



In the fifth picture you can see one of the examples of the piping not actually being supported by anything. There is a chain loop there meant to hold pipe up but its not being utilized. Elsewhere it has popped free and is dangling or is not present at all. It has sagged and caused pooling and quite a bit of water hammer.



The final picture is just to show the lack of main venting. That riser is to a radiator that has been eliminated. There is no main venting before it, either.