Basement Radiators completely wrong?

kmh5147

Hi guys, back for some more information...... over the past few weeks of reading and testing, Ive been able to calm the system down quite a bit.  Now I have a new piece that I believe is causing me the last of some grief.  Can someone explain to me this basment radiator configuration..... it just seems completely wrong.  Color in the picture only indicates what main line its connected to..... red-steam ...  blue-condensate not what is actually happening

Jamie Hall

Interesting...

What, if anything, is it doing or not doing that it shouldn't/should be?  The only line which I see which is a little odd is the condensate line going into the device on the upper right corner of the radiator -- and I suspect that it is just my lack of experience which is the problem, as I don't know what that device is...  can you enlighten me?  I'm really curious.

kmh5147

well my big concern is

the steam supply goes into the radiator and also directly down to the condensate line on the input side of the radiator.  Second, the condensate at the bottem of the radiator has no trap and returns to the condensate.  The line coming off the top looks like an upside down trap, running back to the condensate...... which makes no sense what so ever.  Well to be honest nothing about the basement radiators makes much sense.  The system is a trane vapor, all of the other radiators on the first, second and third floor are in at the bottem and out on the bottem into a trap back to the condensate.

Jamie Hall

Neither of those lines down

is a problem -- the one from the steam line counts as a drip, and prevents any condensate in that steam line from causing mischief in the radiator, and the one from the bottom of the other end is just a condensate line.  That is, assuming that they both go down to a wet return.  If you do that, you don't need a trap.



On the other hand, you do need a way for the air to get out of the radiator so the steam can get in, and -- and this is just supposition, I do hope an expert chimes in here -- the line from the top of radiator on the right hand side just might go to a dry return.  Which just might be vented... in which case, the widget at that corner might be a form of vent?



Of course the basic question is... does it work?

AlexR

basement = water line?

Guessing here- the radiator is close to the water line in the system, so the upper return allows the radiator to vent (that pipe probably connects to the dry returns from the upstairs radiators and the system's main vent).  It needs a trap to prevent steam from getting into the return side of the system.  The bottom return allows the condensate to drain.  No trap needed because it's straight into the wet return, so the steam can't go anywhere.



The supply line dropping into the condensate return is a drip for the line?  Not sure why it couldn't drip into the radiator, but again, presumably the water line seals it so no steam escaping.

gerry gill

i can't tell from the picture but

I assume the trap in the upper corner is the overhead air line to a dry overhead return, the lower right drips to a wet return, and there is nothing wrong with the steam supply that i can determine from the picture.

kmh5147

gary

I think you might be right with your analysis, it is an upside down trap, that overhead line runs to vents which also vent stacks off the wet return.  This must be a larger problem then.  I have a vaporstat keeping the system in the 2-8 ounce range. The system has an open to atmosphere pump behind the boiler, on long systems runs I start to push steam out of the pump cases open vent if I keep the radiator in the pictures valve closed.   However it seems if the valve is open I get knocking on that wet return line and no steam out of the case.  This might have been a fluke however, I need to do some more system runs I suppose to test my theory.

kmh5147

also

the radiator does heat, I'm just trying to mitigate knocking when the system is running on a few degree recovery(The only time I can keep the system running for more then 5 minute).  The system I believe is way oversized with a 578 weil mclain which is rated at over 1600 sq ft, I calculate my edr right around 1000 sq ft.  On a normal thermostat satisfaction, my system runs for about 4 minutes at around 2 ounces at most before its satisfied.  On a longer recovery 3 degrees it runs for about 10 minutes until it hits my 8 ounce cutoff and then within a minute or two it runs again because the pressure drops down to below 2 ozs.  Also I have checked the cutoff with a 3psi gauge.... the vapor stat is 2oz off and adjusted for that.

On a side note, I just moved in 2 months back, the system heats well, it did have some violent knocking which I was able to minimize by adding the vaporstat for long runs and removing a pipe that was off the steam main into the wet return directly on the back of the pump for the boiler.

Here are some links to pictures and a video of the system.

Video - http://youtu.be/HwA8GCIYpvU

Pictures - https://picasaweb.google.com/113522531848219169252/Boiler?authuser=0&feat=directlink



This was before I removed the pipe between the steam main and the wet return and opened the top of the pump case to the atmosphere (Previously it was being pressurized) marked in the one picture.

I was advised against removing that pipe between the steam and wet by someone on this forum but it significantly reduced the hammering on short system runs to nearly none.

JStar

Hammer

Edit

JohnNY

Condensing rad.

I think this radiator is meant to trap and condense any small amounts of remaining steam after the last takeoff from the main and dry return pipes before dumping into the wet return.



Often, they're seen hanging closely to the ceiling in a way that doesn't actually promote a great deal of convection.

Dave in QCA

Basement Radiator is Piped Completly Correct

While you don't see them piped this way very often, and you're getting some mixed messages from the message board here, I have to say that this radiator is piped completely correctly.



Most piping handbooks that show two pipe systems without a condensate tank and with a wet return, will show devices mounted below the steam and condenstate mains piped like this.  Most often you may see it on an indirect radiator.

  

Consider normal radiators piped in above the mains, the return piping and trap have to carry both condensate and air.  When the rad is below the mains you have to drip the condensate to a wet return, but the air won't go through that, so you have to take an separate air line up to the return piping.  Dunham often used an airline vent instead of a trap, this was much like Paul vent and Hoffman still makes their version of this.

If your condensate tank is blowing steam, there is another problem.  Of course at pressures that you are running you really don't need one.  I bet if you look at the tank and where the wet returns tie into it, you will find other drip legs fromt he steam piping dropping to the wet return.  Also, I will bet that the rise of that wet return to the condensate tank is very small and the operating pressure in your mains is pushing all the water out of the wet returns and allowing steam to flow in.  That just a hunch because I have seen exactly the same thing in a few other problematic Trane systems that have been posted here.



Take a picture of your condensate tank and also the return piping.