Desperate- Kindly Help

NY7374

? Last Post magically posted itself before completion

Where was I? Yes... the difference in water level between the 32 1/4 mark v amount is site glass = 1/8 increase of water.

Also measured as best I could the distance from floor to pipes :

Y= 17 7/8

BobC

Feeder disabled?

Is the valve that feeds the auto feeder currently on or off?



Were you able to replace that varivalve with a plug?



Bob

Rod

Wet Return Connections OK Height Wise

Hi- If the floor under the boiler and the floor under "X" and "Y" are approximately the same level that would mean the 17 7/8 inch measurement would put the connections of "X" and "Y" to the Wet Return pipe well below the boiler's 32 1/4 inch waterline so good news is there isn't a configuration problem at this end of the Wet Return. 

 I think at this point if you haven't done so already, I would turn off the valve #1 to the waterfeeder and drain the waterlevel down to the exact mark of the designed boiler water level on the Sight Glass and let's see where it goes from there. Be sure to note the time so if there is a leak in the internal coil, we can determine approximately how much it is per hour.

Let us know when you have the plug replacing the radiator vent and we can decide where to go from there.

- Rod

NY7374

One More Time....

For accuracy, I will attach photos- Hope they help. Was unable to confirm Home Cheap-O and Lowes'est valves had floaters- no plumbing supply stores open = purchased a Watts A-710 Square Head Plug and Thread Seal Tape.

Unsure what next step is, will wait for response:)

NY7374

Getting ready......

Again, at to avoid any unnecessary complications... I am attaching photo to make certain I am using the correct lever to stop the water and correct "faucet"handle to release water from site glass.I assume the yellow lever will only go in one direction when I attempt to move it/

NY7374

Wait!

Once I have the water level in site glass at correct level... what about the yellow lever I turned- does that get turned back into the direction it was, once water level in site glass is at correct level?

Rod

Waterfeeder Shut Off Valve

You have the proper valve. It is a ball valve and needs to be turned 90 degrees to close it. The handle will (should) only turn one way and when the handle is 90 degrees to the pipe the valve is closed  (Just like the other yellow handled valve  under the waterfeeder)

NY7374

Bob....

I dont know if the valve that feeds the auto feeder  is on or off . Sorry I am so stupid:(

 I did not install plug yet as I wanted to make certain with you guys that I take this process step by step, according to your directions. Since you asked... I will take the liberty to assume that it is OK to attempt removing varivalve and install plug.

Rod

Automatic Water Feeder Valve

"Once I have the

water level in site glass at correct level... what about the yellow

lever I turned- does that get turned back into the direction it was,

once water level in site glass is at correct level?"    NO!!!

From now on we're not touching that valve! We want the automatic waterfeeder shut OFF and remain that way! Any adding of water to the boiler should now be done by using the  manual bypass ball valve (# 2) located below the automatic waterfeeder.

NY7374

Varivents....

Cannot get them to budge- they are so tightly inserted!!!!

Rod

Close the valve

Oaky...Can you shut off the valve on the pipe going into the radiator? The direction to close the valve should be clockwise (CW)

NY7374

Valve is just as tight..

Cannot get that to budge either... I thought nothing should ever be closed more than hand tight? Then again, previous owner did have his "way" of doing things!

Rod

Need the Return Worked On

Hi- All valves should be "exercised" at regular intervals otherwise they will freeze up. Unfortunately this isn't done by most people.



   Without being able to stop the water coming out of the radiator, it doesn't make much sense to test further.  With the automatic water feeder turned OFF -Let's just set the boiler's waterline at the 32 1/4 mark on the sight glass and see if it changes over night.

     At this point I'm pretty sure you have a clogged return and it will need to be either cleaned out or replaced and I'm assuming you will have that done by a pro.

   If you decide to have it replaced let us know as the configuration on the boiler end should be changed a bit.

   If you do get it cleaned out, mention to the pro that it maybe clogged at the main side of the pipe union (as opposed to the boiler side)

- Rod

NY7374

Ok....

Step 1- remove water in sight glass, to bring to accurate level-

Step 2- Turn off automatic feeder, using black "switch" on the automatic feeder itself, correct?

I am heading off to purchase some DW40 in hopes that I can get the valve/vent to loosen up!

Just a thought.. what are the odds that the valve on the bathroom radiator is not opened or closed correctly- Could this somehow play a part?



Thank you!!!!!!!

BobC

Handle shoild be at right angle to pipe

The valve marked with the X should be turned so the handle is at right angle to the pipe like the manual feed valve lever below it. As Rod said it will only turn one way.



I assume the varivalves were installed with pipe joint compound and some of that stuff sets up like cement after a while and that is why I old you to install a ney vent or plug with teflon tape because it does not seize up.



You may have to exert a considerable amount of force to get the varivalve to turn (counterclockwise); be careful you don't want to snap it off. Applying steadily increasing force usually works. If you can get that varivalve out and replace it with a plug you will be able to run your heat, just keep an eye on the gauge glass to see which way the water level goes.



good luck,



Bob

Rod

Turn OFF Water Supply to Water Feeder

Step 1- remove water in sight glass, to bring to accurate level- OK



Step 2- Turn off automatic feeder, using black "switch" on the automatic feeder itself, correct?  No!

Shut off valve #1!  The switch is just pushed when you want to manually feed water by way of the automatic water feeder. We want the automatic water feeder with no source for water (by closing valve #1) as we suspect that it may have a slight leak.

- Rod

NY7374

Horrary!!

Verifvent out and just got plug into radiator as tightly as I could  Note no breakage of the vent.    Valve pipe to radiator still won't budge- continuing to saturate it with WD 40.  I checked water level in site glass, and it does not appear water has increased. Have not yet turned system on.

BobC

Don't worry about that valve now

With the plug in place of the varivent the radiator should be off. Wipe off any WD40 so it doesn't smell to high heaven when hot. All the other varivalves should still be closed down.



Making sure the valve before the autofeeder is off - handle is at a right angle to the pipe like the manual feed valve below. Now turn up the thermostat and see what happens with the boiler water line.



Monitor that radiator for problems and try to see if both main vents are working. As the boiler starts to make steam the air should be forced out of both main vents; be careful because steam will some out of those vents just before they close and it can burn skin.



Bob

NY7374

I am Going in!!

Hi Bob!

Feeling a bit confident now. I will follow your directions and will post after this test phase.

Rod

Testing

Test and what to expect.

.

1. Start the boiler and after it starts to make steam the boiler’s water level should drop. This is normal.  Be sure to observe and record any pressure changes on the pressure gauge.



2. It is expected that the boiler’s water level will keep dropping. When it reaches the bottom of the Sight Glass and begins to disappear, shut the burner/ boiler OFF and be sure to make a note of the time. What we are trying to do is to measure how long it now takes for the water to return to designed water level on the sight glass



3. Initially the water level will rapidly rise after shut off as the water in the boiler piping /returns  levels out and then it should slowly creep back to the 32 1/4 inch mark on the Sight Glass.

What we want to determine is the time from Shut Off  till the boiler water returns to the mark



Vent Testing- Steam can give you a BAD burn!  For testing the main vents -use a strip of newspaper taped to a broom handle. For the radiator just dangle a strip of newspaper near the vent’s orifice.

Bob - Please add anything you think is missing

- Rod

BobC

That's about it

I can't think of anything else to track. I do wonder if that far main vent is actually working and that is why I asked him to see if it seemed to be working.



Now we wait.



Bob

NY7374

Sigh... The results.......

7:51: All Varifvents closed- water feeder in off position- water level in site glass at 1/2. Thermostat turned on

7:53 :PIS= 0 Water Feeder Box reads 0.38- Water level in site glass appears to increase by a "hair."

7:57:Main (black) pipe from boiler begins to heat- all readings remain same.

8:01: Loud bang within main (black) pipe-all readings remain same.

8:02: Loud bang again, as water is going (more) towards (closed off) radiator. Readings remain same

8:03: Loud bang again, sounds like something is "shooting" through main(black) pipe. All readings remain the same.

8:04: All readings remains same, however, water level appears to have decreased by a "hair."

8:05: Pinging within main (black) pipe can be heard. Readings remain same.

8:15: Area where main (black) pipes joins return (white) pipe a/k/a "clogged pipe, is warm to touch, as is the main valve in this "first" section. Readings same.

8:16: Main (black) pipe pings. All readings remain same.

8:17: First floor radiators are all heating evenly- 2nd floor radiators= Radiator which appears directly above ( or close to) bathroom radiator is cold, whereas radiator in direct opposite bedroom is hot. All readings remain same.

8:21: Water level appears to be at a decrease- other readings remain same

8:22 Water level appears to have further decreased by a "hair." White return section in "second" part appears slow to to warm?

8:24 Main vent in 1st section ( main closest to bathroom radiator) is leaking. Appears leak is from the seam of the vent itself. This vent is nearly hot, whereas the the main vent in the 2nd section is extremely hot! Turned off thermostat- Radiator in hall entrance ( apparently part of 1st section) was seeping water from area where pipe leads into radiator. Appeared leak may be from the area of where a large nut connects the pipe/housing into the radiator. And bathroom radiator has small amount of water seeping from the knob on the pipe that goes into the radiator ( the knob I cannot turn).

Water level: From floor to water level  in site glass =30 inches.

Do I need to add water now, and if so, how do I do it?

NY7374

Ps...

Water feeder lever continues to be in the off position. Do I return it to the on position?

NY7374

PSS

Appears our posting crossed as Bob's and Rod's posting were done while I was testing.  And surely it will not come as a surprise, but rather "NOW it makes sense" I am a she:)

Rod

After the test

Hi- Don't turn on the automatic water feeder. At this time leave the automatic feeder  permanently OFF!  Any water to be added should be done by using ball valve marked # 2 and just partially open the valve so water enters the bolier slowly.



What we are trying to accomplish is see if all the water returns to the boiler (up to the mark) and how long does it take.  If say by tomorrow morning  we end up with more water than we start with that would mean the internal HW coil is leaking.  If the boiler's water level remains the same, the coil is fine.

- Rod

NY7374

Water level

9:35 Water level almost at 30 1/8- Auto water feeder now reads LOC.

BobC

Don't touch that valve

We want to see how long it takes for the water to return to the boiler, monitor it and see how fast it comes back - let us know how much time it takes for that water to return, most all of that water should find it's way back to the boiler.



That radiator that is leaking at the union nut probably has to be tightened some to stop the water.



The main vent that is not getting hot may have failed and should be replaced, it appears to be either a Maid O Mist #1 main vent and could be replaced with a Gorton #1 if that is easier to find in your area (use teflon tape on the threads when replacing it). Home Depot may not have them, you can get one at a plumbing supply.



It seems your making some progress and now have to replace that bad main vent and pick up a new vent for the plugged up radiator. It may be that the auto feeder was feeding more water into the system to make up for the missing water and then the boiler would appear to be overfilled when the water eventually found it's way back. If the water level does overfill by tomorrow it points to a leaking hot water coil in the boiler. If the water just comes back to the level it was before this run it may indicate the autofeeder is leaking. This is why we want that autofeeder supply valve to stay off.



It's looking like you may have to have some work done on the white return pipes to find out where the blockage is. You could attempt this yourself but heating season is not the best time for a homeowner to undertake this kind of project unless you've got some plumbing skills. Lets just wait to see how long it takes that water to come back.



I can remember my mother fixing leaky faucets and replacing lamp cords when I was a kid so I have faith you can learn to make some of these repairs yourself.



Bob

NY7374

10:00 PM

Water level continues to remain at the 30 inch  mark ( from floor to water in site  I feel as though I am watching a sick child!!

Made list of  needs from plumbing supply store. Perhaps best to replace both main vents?

Although tempting as it seems to change the return pipe myself, "Hmm just have to loosen those large nuts.. take out one pipe and install another, then tighten the nuts"... I will leave it to a pro as I am confident it truly is not that easy! And even if it were, still would not take the chance of making matters worse.

I appreciate your vote of confidence.As stated in a previous posting- growing up with men who earned a degree from  "Mickey Mouse Home Repair University", I tend to shy away from any repair I am not familiar with. However,,, at least now, thanks to you and Rod, when a plumber comes to give me an estimate, I have a bit of knowledge in so I will not have the "deer in headlights" look:)

And once this nightmare is over- I can only hope to find folks like you and Rod who are so extremely  gracious, patient and experienced to assist me with  my next home project= "Why is this house so cold all the time?"

NY7374

10:00 PM

Water level continues to remain at the 30 inch  mark ( from floor to water in site  I feel as though I am watching a sick child!!

Made list of  needs from plumbing supply store. Perhaps best to replace both main vents?

Although tempting as it seems to change the return pipe myself, "Hmm just have to loosen those large nuts.. take out one pipe and install another, then tighten the nuts"... I will leave it to a pro as I am confident it truly is not that easy! And even if it were, still would not take the chance of making matters worse.

I appreciate your vote of confidence.As stated in a previous posting- growing up with men who earned a degree from  "Mickey Mouse Home Repair University", I tend to shy away from any repair I am not familiar with. However,,, at least now, thanks to you and Rod, when a plumber comes to give me an estimate, I have a bit of knowledge in so I will not have the "deer in headlights" look:)

And once this nightmare is over- I can only hope to find folks like you and Rod who are so extremely  gracious, patient and experienced to assist me with  my next home project= "Why is this house so cold all the time?"

BobC

Looks to plugged pretty solidly

90 minutes and no water has returned, it's beginning to look like the slow return is a plugged return. I hope you were able to get enough heat into the house to take some of the chill off.



if that water level holds overnight then the plug will be confirmed and then we just have to see if the auto feeder is leaking - but for now leave the preceding valve off.





Cold houses are usually a sign that there is excess air infiltration, drafts make us feel the cold. You will have to investigate and see if you can find where these drafts are coming from. I've lived in this house for 31 years now and when I first moved in I found there was a nasty draft in one corner of my living room and of course it was right where my chair was. It took a while but the culprit was a draft entering around the garden spigot hole that found it's way to the little gap between the finished oak floor and the baseboard. I was alot more comfortable after I filled that gap.



Bob

NY7374

11:18 PM

Water level remains the same.

Bob, thanks for the tip regarding drafts causing houses to feel cold. Oddly,it isn't as though I feel an actual draft, rather the whole house appears to lack the ability to retain heat in winter or cool air in summer. Due to the age of this home ( built in the 1950's) I can't help but wonder if the insulation behind the walls simply is too outdated.

Although I realize the earlier testing of the system was a short period of time ( WOW  it feel nice to have heat !!!!) the house did heat very nicely. However, I'd say within 15 minutes, burrr.... house was cold again-about 54 degrees.

A short time ago I received an email from a plumber I called earlier. He is going to come over tomorrow morning. I gave no details on the testing we have done thus far, only stating it appears a pipe is clogged.

Would it be beneficial to ask this plumbers any question(s) that you may have, to which I lack the experience to answer or look for. To be quite honest.. I feel far more confident with the knowledge you and Rod posses!!

nicholas bonham-carter

Why so cold

One more reason-your system has not been working well at all. While it should have been warming things up, it has spent most of the time recovering from the missing water. Things will improve when these problems are solved.--NBC

NY7374

6:32 AM

Water level appears the same- perhaps a "baby hair" decrease, if this is possible.

My imagination or the burner does not seem to kick on as much (for hot water), during this testing phase.



NBC that is good news- I've always felt I use more oil than should, but just assumed everyone thinks the same

BobC

Are you sure it's insulated?

My house is over 90 years old and hes no insulation in the walls, a lot of the houses built in the 50's had no insulation in the walls and scant in the attic. You really want at least a foot in the attic and you should find and fill any gaps that might let outside air into the living area. When your boiler comes to life it takes a lot of combustion air, you would rather it did not get that combustion air from upstairs in the house.



Another area to examine is the thermostat you have. A lot of thermostats come preset for forced hot air and that does not work at all well with steam. A steam system has very high mass so it needs to be set for 1 (occasionally 2) cycles per hour, forced hot water systems need 5 or 6 cycles per hour. That results in large temperature swings. I have a Honeywell RTH6450 that keeps the temperature withing one degree and has a setting for Steam (or gravity hot water). They can be bought from Amazon for the cost of a few bottles of good wine.



I would try turning all of your Heatimer Varivalves down to their lowest settings and see how that works, and don't forget to replace tht plug with a new air vent.



Show the plumber the plug you installed in that radiator and tell him your not sure that far main air vent is working anymore. Also show him the two leaks you still have and tell him you think there might be a blockage in that one return that does not heat up. It won't be cheap but hopefully that will put you on the road to a nice warm winter with fuel savings that will add up over the coming years.



They sell books on this site, you would do well to pick up a copy of "We Got Steam Heat" to give you a good overview of steam systems. In the meantime browse through these - http://www.heatinghelp.com/article-categories/96/Problems-that-plague-ONE-PIPE-steam-heating-systems



Bob

NY7374

9:15 AM

Water level appears same.

Thanks Bob for the insight and input.

Thermostat on wall is the "old standard" round Honeywell. Yesterday I purchased a Honeywell programmable thermostat,and now I am uncertain if this was the correct purchase to make. Do you think it will be OK?

I took the liberty to assume there is insulation in the home. The reason for this assumption is based only because I had to tear out a ceiling in an upstairs bedroom and there was old insulation under the ceiling.

No longer do I believe it is my imagination, rather the burner is not kicking on as often as it had. Originally it was explained to me, that even if I was not to use any hot water during the day, as I do not have a separate hot water heater, the burner still must kick on to heat water. Is this true? Again, steam heat is not common in this area, so now I am beginning to think most advice given to me outside this forum was based on baseboard heating.

Plumber delayed but due to arrive shortly. Will keep you posted and again- THANK YOU SO MUCH! Now...

Rod

Piping Diagram

Good Morning!  On the new thermostat, let us know the model number and we can tell you if it is suitable for steam. The important thing is whether the thermostat has a setable cycle per hour function, some thermostats do and some don't.

Piping Diagram-  If you replace the Wet Return piping the pipe size should be 1 inch. Either copper or black pipe can be used for the return piping. Don't use galvanized pipe as with steam it has a tendency for the zinc to flake off and these little flakes can clog your radiator vent holes and the steam control / gauges if the flakes get into the system,

 I've drawn in two ball valves, these allow you to shut off the piping going to the boiler so that all the water in the return pipe can be drained out via the drain valve marked in the drawing.

Bob has already covered the other items. If you have any questions let us know and we'll do our best to answer them.

- Rod

NY7374

Mystery Posting Again...

Forgive me if I am repeating my post- I don't know what happens....

Again, I only wish I could say I was confident the plumber was as experienced and knowledgeable as you two, but I can't. Now will have to make reservations for the "Poor House":(.

Indeed that return pipe was clogged- nothing short of putting the BP oil spill to shame.! Couldn't believe the filth that came out of that pipe!!!! Which, by the way, is galvanized steel and plumber did not replace it, rather just opened it and the gunk poured out.    Whether it matters, plumber didn't seem to know how to turn the water off before opening the pipe.

Nonetheless- plumber stated he had to replace the Verivalve with another Verivalve due to the lack of space between radiator and wall. Not thrilled, but took his word for it. The main valve has been replaced with a Hoffman and either I got taken for a fast ride or Hoffman products are very expensive ( $100.00).

So.... thus far, the burner is running...the auto water feeder box is now reading 0.48 and nothing is leaking.

Needless to say I will once again watch the waterline. So... at this point, since the clog has been removed- what position should all the Verivalves be?

On a humorous note I asked the plumber if he could get the "cap" on the pipe that runs into the radiator to turn- you know, the one I struggled with last night, that I couldn't budge. Yes.. you guessed it.. One swift turn of his hand and the cap was free moving... which brings me to my next question... With an objective to have as little heat with radiators in rooms I do not use, do I want to turn these "caps" towards open or close? In other-words, the cap shows open and closed positions, but what does open and close mean regarding more or less heat from radiator.

And on a closing note- I forgot to mention to Bob that I do not have an attic, rather a crawl space in one bedroom that is accessed through a small door on the wall.

To Rod, I inquired to the plumber if there was a way in which to put a sort of "tee" where the union (?) is - where the return pipe coming down the wall, into the return pipe that runs across the wall= future drainage if necessary and he did not think it was necessary.

No further banging.. so I guess that is a good thing,

Now in closing, I truly cannot express my sincere gratitude to both of you, as well as others for their input.  Not only did I feel far more confident when the plumber was here, but because of you guys, I was able to say "main vent" to which the plumber did not appear to know what a main vent is, until I pointed it out to him!!!

Again, thank you. This world would be a far, far better place if we had more folks like the two of you. God bless you both!!!!!

NY7374

Forgot... the thermostat

The thermostat I purchased is a Honeywell 5-2 Day. Looks as though the model number is RTHL2310B1008. However, I just discovered that the area where the "original" thermostat is situated ( on molding)  measures 3 1/2 inches in width , whereas the newly purchased thermostat  measures 4/12 inches in width( figures eh?)  So guess the thermostat is going back.

BobC

Progress is always good

I'm glad that clog has been fixed and the system seems to be working again.



I would set all the varivents on the first floor to the minimum and the second floor vents a little higher. Most systems work best when the radiators are vented slowly. measure the distance between the threaded fitting on those radiator vents and the back wall and also to the wall beside the radiator. There may be a way to use an elbow and a straight vent on those radiators



If that plumber didn't understand what Rod suggested you have done with that return piping it's just as well he didn't fool with it. Maybe you can find someone a bit more competent in the spring.



For now think about buying that book I suggested earlier and look around to see whet you can do to tighten up the house so you'll be nice and warm.



good luck,



Bob

NY7374

Hello Again

Thanks Bob!

Yes, I intend to purchase the book you suggested:)

As I rarely use the second floor of the home, this is the floor I am attempting to reduce the amount of heat in, as much as possible.

Burner has been operational for a few hours... thermostat set to 65 and wow is it nice to be warm again. Burner kicked down about 1/2 hour ago- water level is at 1/2 mark and water feeder read out remains same.

The differences I am currently seeing now, is that the the burner does not appear to kick on as frequently and the radiators appear to be more of a warm than hot to touch, but not suggesting the radiators are not heating, Perhaps it has to do with the fact that the Verivalves had previously been opened all the way? Seems to me, and I could be wrong, but this is the way the radiators should react when the thermostat is send around the mid to low 60's mark?

And I agree- perhaps it is best to wait until spring for any further rehabing of the system

Thanks again!!!!!