Desperate- Kindly Help

NY7374

Cape Cod style home cira 1950's.Boiler (PB) and burner (oil) installed late winter 2011.  1 pipe system. (one pipe feeds water, one pipe returns water to boiler). End of 2011 heating season  heard banging from pipes, shortly thereafter, heating season over, No seperate hot water heat= system runs for hot water= no banging of pipes. Turned heat (thermostat) on for first time this season. Rusty water is visable in water glass, which water level is topped. Turn down thermostat-Remove water to bring level back to 1/2 in water glass. Approx 8 minutes later, pipes begin to bang getting  increasingly louder.Attempting to trace specific pipe where banging noise is coming from, I discover water rushing down basement wall.. Turn off thermostat and go to radiator above where water is coming down wall. Radiator is spewing water from bleeder valve ( replaced when boiler/burner installed) and water appears to be slowing attempting to seep from the "cap" of the pipe that comes up from floor, into radiator. Noting water glass fills to top again. Pipes leading from boiler to radiators are all hot. Area where it appears the return pipe ( return to boiler) starts ( ceiling of basement- directly  below radiator that spewed the water)  the very top of pipe is hot, however continue to follow this pipe and it is cold. Although opinions are that there is a clog in return pipe which is not permitting water back to boiler= water/condensation is backing up through feed pipe and returning to boiler, no one seems to agree on how to resolve this issue. Some say chemicals, others say replace section of pipe where clog appears. No one has addressed if it is possible radiator needs to be pitched. Its is getting COLD... and I am fearful of turning heat on until the issue is resolved. Any thoughts - opinions- would be greatly appreciated!  Thank You!!!!

nicholas bonham-carter

Desperately cold

Lets recap the sequence of events:

At the beginning of the season, when starting the boiler for the first time, you noticed the sight-glass to be completely full, and then drained enough water out so that the level became normal.

Then when the boiler made steam, one of the radiators was gushing water. (is the valve completely open on this one?)

Once again the water level was too high. (I would make sure that any sort of auto filler is valved off, and once again drop the level)

As long as you have your hand on the switch, you can always stop the boiler when it bangs. One possibility is that a leak in the feed water valve, or hot water coil has over-filled the system quite a bit.

There may also be a plug in the condensate return, but I would expect a leak from old pipes before a plug. If that is replaced, then put a valve on it so it can be flushed out in the future.--NBC

Enreynolds

I am confused

You state a one pipe system.  A one pipe system has only one pipe connected to the radiator, which both supplies steam and returns condensate.  A one pipe system requires air vents on the radiators.  A two pipe system has two pipes connected to the radiator, one supplies steam to the system and usually will enter at the top of the radiator and the other pipe returns condensate back to the boiler.  Two pipe systems of the era of your house do not have air vents on the radiators: air is vented through the return piping.  Sometimes well intentioned individuals will install air vents on a two pipe radiator to attempt to correct a  problem, but is not the correct solution.  I am confused as to what type of system you actually have. Could you please post pictures of your system and radiators.  Take the pictures from a ways back, so we can see and trace associated piping, and take them from as many sides as you can.  Additionally, I highly recommend obtaining at least one of Dans books "We Got Steam Heat", available in the Shop section above, if you do not already have it.  It is an easy, humorous read, that will put you way ahead in understanding your system, the vernacular, and what to expect from your system. I am sure we can help you, but we need a lilttle more info.

Eric

Rod

Water Level Problems

Hi- We really need more info about your system. Could you post some pictures of your boiler and the connecting piping and also of the problem radiator. Take the pictures from farther back than normal so that both the boiler and connecting piping are in the picture. This allows us to trace out where each pipe is routed. Also let us know the model number of your Peerless boiler.



From the sound of it your system is flooded. This can be from:

1. A leaking automatic water feeder

2. Since you have a hot water coil in your boiler to heat domestic hot water, this coil may have developed a pin hole leak and is adding water to boiler.

3. The Wet Return piping is partially obstructed and therefore the condensate from the radiators is slow returning to the boiler. This causes the automatic water feeder to add more water to the system which after a period of time floods the system.

Tests-

The first thing to do is to turn the burner off, and shut off the water going the automatic water feeder. Allow things to cool a bit and then drain the boiler water down to the normal boiler water level. Mark the exact water level on the glass sight tube. Allow several hours to go by and then look at the water level. If it has risen that means that either the internal coil is leaking or the valve to the water feeder is leaking. Which one can usually be decided by how well you trust the shut off valve to the automatic water feeder.

4. If there is no movement in the water level we can suspect that the water returning to the boiler by way of the wet return is the problem.  With the water level at the correct level AND the automatic water feeder shut OFF, start the system, after a period of time if the return is plugged up, the boiler will run out of water and the Low Water Cut Off will shut down the burner. After a period of time the water should slowly return to the boiler.

Time how long this takes to happen. If this occurs it is a sign that your wet return is partially clogged up and needs cleaning. Sometimes it's just easier to replace it with new piping. Since this isn't a steam bearing pipe it can be done in copper rather than black iron.

Another question; At what pressure does your steam system normally run?  A residential steam system should run at a maximum of 2 PSI.

- Rod

NY7374

Thanks you for your immediate response...

Hello Again!!

Before I comment on photos of my system, kindly allow me to clarify. Yes- when turned on thermostat- approx 6 minutes when the banging of pipe(s) began. Water spewed only from bleeder valve of one radiator and appeared water was slightly seeping around the "cap" of the pipe that leads into this particular radiator. I immediately turned off the thermostat, returned to basement where I noticed site glass was filled to top. Kindly note that all radiators in the house appeared to be operating normally. All radiators, except one that was spewing water from bleeder, valve were evenly heating, with no issues at all.Currently, again, thermostat is off- and the site glass shows water filled to top. Note when I "remove" water, I bring level in site glass to half way mark. As I attempt to clarify the system I have, I am attaching photographs. However, it was explained to me that there are pipes that run from boiler supplying radiators with water. Then, there are another "set" of pipes that return the water/condensation to the boiler, Photo 1 and 2 are an overview of boiler. Photo 3 and 4 show the (black) pipe that runs from the boiler to the radiators. Photo 5 and 6 show where the black pipe meets the "return" pipe (thin-er whit pipe running down wall. This white pipe proceeds to run along half the basement, returning back to boiler. It is this white pipe in which a section remains cold, while the rest of the pipe is hot. Hence, the opinion that there is a blockage in part of the pipe that is not allowing the water/condensation to return correctly. I hope this helps. Thank you all so much for your immediate assistance and suggestions. And thanks so much for your time!!!

Rod

Boiler Flooding Problems

Hi-  You have a Peerless ECT Boiler which I 'm fairly familiar with as it is the same one that I have in my home. The design water level for that boiler is 32 1/4 inches vertically above the floor.  The ECT is a very good boiler!

   Did you do the tests I suggested and did you get a pressure reading when the boiler was operating? As mentioned earlier the maximum pressure of the system should never be more than 2 PSI.

   From the picture of the boiler it seem you have two steam mains. For reference I have labeled them Main "A" and Main "B", I can see only one return pipe, do both Main"A" and Main"B" have return pipes? Which Main is connected to the "white pipe"?

   The return shown in the attached boiler picture appears to go below the floor, is that correct?  If so, it is highly probable that this return is partially plugged up as being the lowest part of the system, it collects all accumulated rust, dirt etc. from system.

   I notice you have no insulation on your steam piping. You really need to insulate your steam pipes as you losing a lot of heat that should be going to your radiators and this wastes fuel. I've attached an article on the benefits of insulating steam pipes.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/325/Piping/300/Why-you-should-insulate-steam-pipes

- Rod

NY7374

Trying One Step at a Time

Kindly tolerate my ineptness- between being advised that steam heating systems can be dangerous, and dealing with a cracked rib, I am at a disadvantage here.  I have taken a few more photos for clarification. Apparently the way the system was described to me v. the overall view is a bit different. Nonetheless.... I will post these photos, and then go to boiler for what I hope will be of more assistance to Rod's posting. PS, I focus on the pipes, as I have been told pipe "X" is the culprit of my current dilemma

Step one: Photos

NY7374

How to turn off water to feeder?

I am clueless as to how to shut the water off to the automatic water feeder. However, I do see a yellow lever that is slightly behind and below the  automatic feeder- see photo. Is this the lever that will turn off the water?

Thank you!!!!!!

BobC

varivalve problem

That air valve on the end of the radiator is a ventrite varivalve and they do not have an internal float so they can dump water if provoked. that valve is aggressive and can lead to problems if not used correctly. In most cases we want the radiators to vent slowly and the mains to vent quickly. What kind of main air vent(s) are on your steam main(s) in the basement?



There is the lever that adjusts that valve set to? Unless it is on an upper floor it should be set down to the lower end of its range, i would check the other air valves to see where they are set as well.



Bob

NY7374

Yes- I am Stupid

Returned to basement to empty water from boiler. Upon further investigation, noticed there is switch on top of the automatic water feeder. Is this the switch I use to turn the water off? Coming from a family of men that simply loved to tinker with anything and everything, which always resulted in twice the work and twice the money to repair their brainstorms, I learned NOT to touch anything unless 100 certain of what is is you are touching!

Another photo to which I hope gives clarification to Rod's question regarding pipes.

NY7374

Yes- I am Stupid

Returned to basement to empty water from boiler. Upon further investigation, noticed there is switch on top of the automatic water feeder. Is this the switch I use to turn the water off? Coming from a family of men that simply loved to tinker with anything and everything, which always resulted in twice the work and twice the money to repair their brainstorms, I learned NOT to touch anything unless 100 certain of what is is you are touching!

Another photo to which I hope gives clarification to Rod's question regarding pipes.

NY7374

Reply to Bob

Main air vents? I have not a clue what a main air vent is- or where they are to be located, but if you would be so kind as to assist me in where and what I should look for, I am more than willing to hunt them down:)



Thanks for your reply. PS..As to what I refer to as a bleeder valve- they are, as they have been when installed (late winter 2011), in the (full) open position.

NY7374

Reply to Bob

Main air vents? I have not a clue what a main air vent is- or where they are to be located, but if you would be so kind as to assist me in where and what I should look for, I am more than willing to hunt them down:)



Thanks for your reply. PS..As to what I refer to as a bleeder valve- they are, as they have been when installed (late winter 2011), in the (full) open position.

BobC

Venting

In a steam system all the air in the pipes and radiators has to be evacuated before steam can fill the void and supply us with heat. As steam fills the space it condenses as it contacts the cold iron and this goes on till the iron get heated up. If you vent the air out of radiators to fast it can get scooped up and propelled out of the radiator air vent unless it has a float that closes the vent if water fills it, this is why we want radiators to vent slowly. A Ventrite Varivalve set to full open is 10X more aggressive then it should be in most cases.



The steam mains in the basement are large pipes and they can handle larger volumes of steam and water. We want them to vent quickly so steam will be available to the radiator feeds at about the same time. If you look at your steam mains you should see vents towards the end of them, they could be silver, green or copper colored. If you can find them what make and model are they? While your at it tell us how long the steam mains are and what size pipe (pipe circumference is fine) they are.



I would start by closing your radiator air vents down, having them fully open is not a good idea. Start by adjusting all of them to about 25% open and see how they work, a lot of them may end up having to turned almost all the way down.



Bob

Rod

Returns

Hi- The pictures are a great help.  What first got me involved in steam heating was I was getting the same sort of input by “heating pros” about my steam system that you seem to be getting now. “Your system is obsolete”, “dangerous”, “We‘ve done the best we can, it’s just worn out!”  Etc. Etc.  What is typically wrong with a lot of residential steam systems is that the people that worked on them over the years didn’t have a clue to what they were doing and have made modifications that don’t belong in there.  Once you get rid of the “mickey mouse” fixes and get the systems straightened out, they are run very well and steam heat is very comfortable.



I’ve attached one of your pictures and relabeled several of the parts. Note the Main Vent on the steam main just before Return “Y” connects. Question: Is there a similar main vent on the main just before Return “X” connects?   The main vent you have rather inadequate for the job and you need to increase your main venting capacity and it there isn’t a Main Vent on Return “X”’s main there needs to be one of a similar large venting capacity. We can go into Main Vents at a later time.



Question:  Does Return “Y” get hot all the way to the elbow labeled “1"?



From what I understand Return “X” doesn’t get hot.

Question: Does the elbow labeled “2” get hot?



Question : Is the item  marked #3 a pipe union? I can’t tell from the photo.



Question: Are the elbows marked “1" and “2" well below the waterline level of the boiler?

It’s important that they are for the system to function properly.



From the pictures I can now see that each main has a return.

Question: The pipe I marked “wet Return - does it go underground on its wy back to the boiler?



I see others have already commented on the Vari Valve on the radiator. These are huge capacity radiator vents and in my option cause more trouble than good. While they have certain specific uses, they are typically improperly used to make up for lack of main venting. They spit water because unlike most other radiator they lack a float valve to stop water escaping.

Question: Do all your radiators have VariValves vents?

I’ve attached a blurb on radiator valves which may be of help to you. 

- Rod



 

NY7374

Further Observations...

I read the article regarding insulation of pipes, which Rod was so kind to link. Prior to cracking rib, it was my intention to do the insulation. However... when insulating pipes, are ALL pipes to be insulated- if not, which pipes are to be avoided. I've seen sponge like material that appears to be quite easy to install, but, is there any other types of insulation that is more conducive for steam pipe system?

Next question- the site glass as well as the Styrofoam cup used to catch the water from the bleeder valves has a dirty rust color, and what appears to be some sediment. If I am correct in understanding that this dirty water will finds it way to the boiler, surely this cannot be good for the boiler. How does one go about cleaning out, whatever needs to be cleaned, to get the water running back to boiler clean?

Again, I will apologize for my ineptness and am grateful to all of you for your patience and assistance!!

Rod

Insulation

Insulation- You only need to insulate the boiler piping that carries steam and the steam mains.  1 inch of insulation gives you the best "bang for the buck". Here’s a good link on insulation by one of the Wall members,  “Crash”

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/137178/Insulation#p1236446



The benefit of insulation is that more steam gets to the radiators before it condenses. If it condenses in the piping it gives up its latent heat there rather than in the radiator where it will be put to better use.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/321/Steam-Heating-Basics/128/A-Steam-Heating-Primer



Don’t be concerned about asking questions. That’s how we all learn. Steam heating is a bit confusing at first but quickly falls into place.

I’m not sure if you have already been told about the steam books that are available in the Shop section of this website. I would start with a book called “We Got Steam Heat!”

http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Steam-Heating-Books/25/61/We-Got-Steam-Heat-A-Homeowners-Guide-to-Peaceful-Coexistence

It’s written by Dan Holohan ,who also wrote the article on insulation you just read.  It’s the book most of us homeowners started on and gives you all the basics and terminology. It’s written especially for the homeowner new to steam and in an evening or two of reading your knowledge of residential steam heating will be light years ahead. 

Rod

Waterfeeder

Hi- In answer to your question about the waterfeeder. The button on top of the waterfeeder  for manual feeding water to the boiler. From what i can see in the boiler picture, the yellow handled valve just under the feeder is a manual bypass valve.

 Coming out of the one side of waterfeeder a pipe goes to the boiler piping /boiler and from the other side the pipe goes presumably up into the ceiling area. This pipe delivers water to the waterfeeder. There should be another valve on this line which shuts off the water supply to the feeder.

- Rod

NY7374

More photos and Answers...

Hello Again!

In answer to Rod's questions......

Return Y get hots, and I am 99% confident that elbows 1,2 and 3 all get hot,

As I do not know what a "union pipe" is, I've attached a closer view/

I am unaware of exactly what a "water line" is in relationship to pipes running at it, above it or below it.

Wet line does not go underground, but appears to lower from wall showing on the photo, to other two walls, on its travel to the boiler. In other words, as the wet pipe travels to the boiler, it slopes. Again, photo attached to show where the end of the wet pipe goes into boiler, so to speak.

All radiators have the Varivents ( I refer to as bleeder valves) which have remained in the (full) open position , as they were when they were installed in 2011.

Now I will try to figure out where exactly I turn off the  water-feeder

And just for the record, I am so fearful that if I operate the burner/boiler in its current condition, I may be doing damage., Logically I feel it is best to pinpoint the problem before turning on the thermostat again:)

As far as the main vents, back to the basement with camera...as I do not want to give an incorrect description:)

NY7374

Main Vent...

If the attached photo ( sorry poor quality) is a main vent, then there are a total of 2 main vents. See second photo for vent locations

NY7374

In Furtherance...

The bleeder valves (sorry- am stuck with this term) on the radiators were never and issue last year, and only the one on the bathroom radiator began spewing water when the thermostat was turned on this year. Don't know if this makes a difference to current issue(s) at hand. Back to basement in continuing to search for the means in which to turn water off to boiler and to measure the main pipes.



You are all the best!!!!

NY7374

Measurments of Pipes

There is collectively- approx. 80 feet of 8 inch  main pipe ( the large black pipes).

NY7374

Varivalve

OK... slowly I am getting the hang of this.... at least regarding the Varivalves ( see I didn't say bleeder valves) Clearly my shopping list is now to include insulation for pipes and replacement of the Varivalves.

However, it is even within the realm of possibility that these valves alone could cause the banging of pipes, which sounded more like cannons going off in basement- and the cause of the water level in the site glass filling to the brim? Clearly they could be the cause of water spewing out of them, as pointed out. Still looking for the means to shut water off to boiler

NY7374

Again,stumped....

Here is a photo of the side view of boiler. Lots and lots of levers... however, I cannot decipher which levor is to turn off water to boiler:(     Perhaps the lever that appears hidden, at top of photo marked with an L?

Rod

Waterfeeder Valves

Hi Again-

Pipe Measurements - Pipe size is determined by the  inside diameter measurement.

I've attached a table to help you determine your pipe sizes. Measure the pipe circumference and consult the table for the pipe size.

Water Feeder Shut Off-  (See attached picture)  To completely shut off water to the boiler both the Waterfeeder Shut Off Valve AND the Manual Feed Shut OFF Valve need to be closed.  Both these valves are ball valves and are shut when the handle is 90 degrees to the pipe. Normal operation would be with the Waterfeeder Shut off Valve OPEN and the Manual Shut Off valve CLOSED.

Since we are looking at the boiler take photo the side of the boiler next to the wall. (I'm looking for a "skim valve").

I'm busy for a couple of hours - will try to get back later this evening on the return line.

- Rod

BobC

Venting and water hammer

Those main steam valves look like Maid-O-Mist and they are rated at 0.33 cu ft per minute; Your pipe is probably 2" ID and 80ft of it contains about 1.8 cu ft of air. If those two mains are about the same length then each contains about 0.9 cu ft of air so one of those vents would eliminate that air in a little less than 3 minutes; faster would be nice but that is probably ok for now. I think your problem is that the varivalves (rated at 0.55 CFM when set to maximum) are venting air much to fast and that is resulting in a lot of condensate sloshing around the pipes. That condensate may be responsible for the banging (water hammer) your hearing in the pipes. As steam encounters water in the pipes in can condense and it condenses at the rate of 1600:1, that is what causes the bang. Excessive radiator venting causes a lot of condensate to form in the pipes and the incoming steam is meeting it in the radiators and the piping. Why that one radiator is bearing the brunt of all this can only be determined by a deailed examination of the systems piping.



When that excess water found it's way into the boiler through perhaps either a leaking auto feeder or a pinhole in the domestic hot water coil, water found it's way into places it doesn't belong. You may find some of your piping no longer has the correct slope to it and is traping water where it can't drain back to the boiler as it should. This is conjecture on my part but bears looking into.



If you were to turn the varivalves all the way down they would vent at 0.065CFM which would be about right for most radiators. Radiators on upper floors are usually vented a little faster than those on the first floor but I suggest you try turning all the varivalves down to the minimum and see how the system performs. It will be slower to heat because of the reduction in radiator vent rates but the radiators should start to heat up at about the same time. If water starts to come out of that one radiator you can always just turn the boiler off again.



While the system is coming up to steam check the pipes at those two main valves and see if they are getting hot at about the same time and verify they are expelling air untill they get heated up by the steam.







One way to turn a radiator off is to turn it's air vent upside down, the float then blocks the exit hole and no steam can enter that radiator. As I said earlier the varivalves don't have floats in them so this trick will not work on your radiators. If you were to replace the varivent on that problem radiator with a Gorton or Hoffman vent you could effectively turn that problem radiator off and run the boiler to heat the rest of the house.



Bob

NY7374

Deep Breath... Here I go...

Hi Guys!

Thank you SO much for your assistance here. A little humor- if you can believe it- my grandfather ( long deceased) was a plumber- guess something got lost in the gene pool with me:) Terrified I am going to mess something up- I am going to study the photo Rod sent of where valves are before I try my hand at opening and closing them . However, as Bob suggested, I will close 75%  the Varivents on all radiators in the house, leaving only 25% open. Of course will make sure level in site glass is no more than 1/2 way before turning on thermostat,

  If it matters... I do recall when originally attempting to find the banging of the pipes, as I followed the main (black)pipes the banging was clearly close to the position where the bathroom radiator ( one that spewed water from Vari vent. Moments ago I was reminded that I did in fact turn on the thermostat a second time, the day following my first turn on of thermostat for the season. I vividly recall feeling the main pipe ( see photo) and thinking :My goodness, if I didn't know, I would swear there were torpedoes running through this pipe!, I

Oh.. and I measured the circumference of the pipes- according to the chart, my pipes are 2". HA.. bit of a difference eh?:)

(Deep Breath) wish my luck!!:)

BobC

Pipe insulation

Insulating steam pipes saves fuel and allows the system to work as it was designed. The insulation reduces the rate of condensation because the pipes retain their heat.



The foam insulation they sell at the big box stores is not going to work for steam pipes, you need 1" fiberglass pipe insulation. The 1/2" isn't enough and the heavier styles (2 and 3") get very expensive. This can be bought at supply houses along with fittings that go around the elbows and T's on the piping. You can buy it online  - http://www.buyinsulationproductstore.com/servlet/the-457/Fiberglass-Pipe-Insulation-Pipe/Detail

but the shipping is expensive so buy it locally if you can. It's easy to install and while it's not cheap it is only a one time expense and it will pay for itself over time.



Start with the near boiler piping and work your way out to the steam mains and radiator pipes. I would not start insulating till we have the current problems under control in case some pipe work becomes necessary.



Bob

JUGHNE

Is that meant to be a Hartford Loop

on the back where copper tees into return.  Just a question from the back of the class room or was it already answered, I doze off a lot.  It looks low, the books imply problems if so. Problems started with new piping/boiler.   Someone knows better than me. Thanks

nicholas bonham-carter

Wet returns

Are those drops from the main vents going down to the floor?

If not are they located below the height of the water in the boiler?

Could the banging be in those pipes?--NBC

BobC

Low

I agree the tie in is too low but I don't think that is at the root of the problem he is having right now. If that tie in was up close to the water line it could sure cause some water hammer but being low I don't think it will cause any hammer.



Bob

Rod

Wet Return

First of all I’ll start with a question. How long have you had the system off since you last operated it?  If the waterline hasn’t  risen since then that would mean that the waterfeedet and the internal coil are okay and aren’t the problem.



Plugged Return- More and more it looks like the Return “X” is the problem and is partially clogged up.  The item numbered “3" in the picture is a pipe union which is used to join two pipe. It can be taken apart and you would then be able to see the interior of the pipe and determine the condition.  THIS IS A DIRTY JOB! BE PREPARED to catch and pick up a volume of cruddy water that comes out of the wet return pipe.  Be sure to shut of the Wet Return valve near the boiler before open the pipe . This will stop the water draining back out of the boiler. (see attached labeled photo sheet) It maybe that the pipe union is causing the clog as on some unions the opening going through them is restricted.

Sometimes it is better (end result and labor costs) to rather than clean out the old pipe just replace it with a new copper pipe.  Copper is okay to use on piping that doesn’t carry steam. If you decide to go this way let me know and I’ll draw out a piping diagram for you.



Other Vent- You’ve found the other vent! (See attached photo)  Good!  Like the vent on the other main this one’s venting capacity needs to be increased.  

- Rod

NY7374

I am Back.......

Hi Guys!

OK... here is when/what I did and the outcome....

7:42: Thermostat read 53 degrees in room where the thermostat is located, After closing the Verivents ( approx to a 25% opening),- water in site glass at the half way mark-  water feeder box gave a reading at 0.36. The PSI level appeared to be at the "O" mark.  I proceeded to turn thermostat to 60 degrees.

7:46: All remains quiet- water in site glass bobbing up and down- readings at water feeder box and PSI level remains same.

7:48: Water in site glass begins to look a bit dirty.

7:51: Main (black) pipe from the starting point, out of burner is now hot. Water level in site glass appears to be a bit higher

7:52:  I walk along main pipe's route- and pipe gets warmer as I follow it down its path

7:53: Very fast bang at area where initially referred to at the start of this saga. Site glass -PSI and water feeder box readings all remain same

7:56: Again, very fast bang at same area as above

7:59: Radiators remain cold, main pipe continues to heat along its path.

8:00: Radiators that are run from the "1st section" of system begin to warm. All readings remain same, with exception that water in site glass appears to have an extremely low decrease in water level. At this point, the main pipes, in both sections, if you will, are heating very nicely.

8:05: Radiators in 2 level ( 2 floors up from basement) remain cold

8:07: All remains same, All return ( white) pipes in both "sections" remain cold.

8:09 All radiators on 1st level, with exception of bathroom radiators are now warm.

8:16: Return ( white) pipes, in "second" section are warming, but return pipe in 1st section remains cold. Water in site glass appears to have VERY slight decrease. At this time, the PSI level appears to have moved up one "line"/notch?

8:19: 2nd level radiators remain cold

8:20: Water is quickly spewing from Ventivalve. All radiators are warm- Water level in sight glass is VERY low- PSI is at second- third line/notch. QUICKLY turned down thermostat to turn off burner. Although the return (white) pipes were heating from the section section, it did not appear that there was ample enough time for the complete second line of the return pipe, back to boiler mark, to heat.

I am attaching photo to show exactly where the return pipe fails to warm. Also.. as soon as I discovered the water falling down the basement wall, I immediately turned off thermostat, went to bathroom radiator to close the Ventivalve off completely, to which when closed ( thermostat off) continued to spew water.

Please note in photo where I divided the sections, I refer to H and C. When I felt these return pipes, from top ( ceiling) about three inches down, the pipe was warm. However, as I followed down the pipe- as it continued to make the left turn, as it runs against the wall, the pipe remained cold up until about 3-4 inches where the pipe begins to meet into the second section.  

In about an hour, when I feel boiler has cooled down enough, I will check level in site glass.

If I have not answered any ones question, I apologize, and will review all postings after I take another "reading" of the site glass.

As always... you guys really are the best- Thank you SO much.. and I have made note on proper insulation to purchase, including stay away from Home Cheapo:)

NY7374

Whoops...

Photo didnt attach.. here it is...

NY7374

Answers....

Hello Again!

Rod- prior to tonight, last time system was  up and running ( for less than 15 minutes) was about 4 or 5 days ago. From that time,until today ( prior to my little test of tonight) twice a day, I remove water from the boiler ( see bucket in previous posted photo of boiler)  which is generally about a full bucket each day. Again, burner/boiler is left on for heating water. Now... with all that has been said and back to the return pipe that refused to heat up- I received one estimate and nearly fainted! While I do not begrudge anyone  to make a  living, with the understanding that  running a business does not come cheap, I though the estimate for replacing the section of pipe ( only the section of return pipe that runs down the wall- not the pipe that runs along wall to second section) was rather high. Hence, I wanted to make certain that the plumber was correct in his diagnosis. When I happened upon this website and began reading a few posts, it quickly became quite clear, the posters here know their stuff!  Coupled with the fact that in my area, residential steam heat is rare.  So again... I thought it best to post here, as you all are so very well knowledge and experienced with steam heating systems Along with the bonus of how much I have learned from every-ones generosity of sharing their time and knowledge with me!

BobC

Slow return and a leak??

I am assuming the auto water feeder never turned on during this trial, is that correct? I should have asked you to turn off the valve off that feeds the auto feeder so it can't feed water during this test.



It's beginning to look like Rods idea of the slow return could be right; that return piping might have to be flushed, snaked or replaced. If the water level in the boiler slowly creeps back it points to a partially clogged return.



I just saw your most recent post about removing a half bucket of water twice a day for the last 4-5 days.  That is a lot of water and it means we have to find out where the water is coming from. tomorrow I would turn the water feed to the auto feeder off and drain the boiler till it's at the right level and mark that level so you can tell if it moves. I would not do it tonight because you have to monitor that level to make sure it doesn't increase or decrease. Monitor the water level through the day and see if the water level begins to creep up; if it doesn't it points to a bad seal on the auto feed valve. If the water level starts to creep up with the auto feed water valve off it means you have a small leak in the domestic hot water coil inside the boiler.



It could be you have a slow return and water leaking into the boiler at the same time.



You might want to get a 1/8" pipe plug to replace the varivent that is spewing water; that would allow you to run the heat without getting water all over the place. That radiator would not heat but you would be able to get some heat into the house.



Bob

Rod

Shut Off the Waterfeeder

Hi- I think Bob is taking us in the right direction. We’ve (at least I have) been considering which individual item (part) of the system  is causing the problem when in fact it may be more than one item giving you problems.



Manual Water Feed- If Auto Waterfeeder is leaking, we can immediately eliminate the possibility  right away by shutting it off and switching solely to manual feed so let's just shut the automatic waterfeeder OFF.  In the attached photo,  CLOSE the valve marked with the number  “1" and from now on use the ball valve marked with the number “2" to manually add water to the boiler.

   With the waterfeeder shut off, if the boiler level rises above the set design boiler line level. it can only be due to a leak in the Hot Water coil.

   Due to possible potential flooding problems, a lot of people don't use an automatic water feeders and add water to their boiler only manually.  With a probe type Low Water Cut Off like you have, when the system is running properly with all steam leaks fixed, you shouldn't use hardly any water at all.



Thinking back I seem to  remember several people reporting problems with leaking Hydrolevel VXT water feeders about the time this boiler was installed. The unit itself should still be under warrantee so that can be taken care of after the system gets straightened out.



I think Bob’s plan to temporarily remove the Vari-Valve Vent and  close the vent hole using a pipe plug is also a very good idea. 1/8 inch brass/bronze pipe plugs are readily available from Home Depot or from most good hardware stores.  The plug will stop water making a mess why we figure out what the problem is.

- Rod

NY7374

Auto Water Feeder

Hi Again!

Bob- I am taking the liberty to assume the auto water feeder was on during the "testing phase" as the reading  was displayed in red digital numbers, The number itself never changed from when the burner first kicked- when the thermostat was turned off, and now, about 6 hours later, the digital read out number continues to remain the same,

Water in the site glass is now between the half way and three quarter mark, and oddly enough doesn't look as dirty as it did when the system was operating in "test mode."

If we say the culprit is in fact the return pipe- by plugging the bathroom radiator I cannot harm the boiler- to say the water won't start flowing backwards to the boiler, correct?

Will study both yours and Rod updated posts to get a good grip on the next testing stage suggested, and will pick up plug at Home Cheap-O tomorrow:)... which reminds me. Are the valves easy to change? To me, the inexperienced, it looks as though they simply twist off by hand,, but then again, as we all know- what I know about plumbing and heating equals not much:)

BobC

Don't trust it

I don't think I would trust that auto feeder until we have proved it's good, turn the valve off as Rod suggested. Plugging that radiators air valve tapping will not harm anything; if there is a blockage in the return line the water level will creep up over time. The reason we want that valve that feeds the auto feeder off is so we can eliminate the autofeeder from this portion of the test.



I've lived with steam systems for well over 60 years and have never had a autofeed on any of them. Boilers should be observed every day or two just to make sure everything is as it should be. If you have to manually add water to a boiler it should be done before you are about to have it start making steam so you can drive any oxygen out of the new water. Because your boiler supplies the house hot water it will always be hot so when adding water do so skowly so you don't shock the cast iron with a rush of cold water.



The air valves just twist off the radiator by turning them CCW. When you buy the 1/8" plug get a spool of teflon tape so you can put a few wraps of it around the plug threads before screwing it, or a different air valve, back on the radiator.



Has the water level in the gauge glass changed since last night?



Bob

NY7374

Good Morning....

It has been about nine hours since I last viewed the site glass. Decided to continue "testing" by having hot water run for about twenty minutes. Checked site glass again, Water seems to have moved up by a "hair". Hence no real additional water to speak of. Am now headed to purchase a new valve or plug if valve is not available.  Will be back to posting when I've returned from Home Cheap-O:)



And again, cannot stress how appreciative I am for every ones help- and grateful to have the assistance of those who are so vastly experienced!!!

Rod

Design Waterline Measurement

Good Morning! Small leakage won’t necessarily be recorded by the counter on the VXT waterfeeder. That’s why we have to use the sight glass to determine whether water has been gained or lost.

If it hasn’t been done already, the first thing that needs to done is to mark precisely the design waterline on the sight glass. Measure up vertically from the floor and using a fine Magic Marker, make a mark on the sight glass at the 32 1/4 inch measurement. (See attached drawing)



There are 17.28 gals of water in the ECT boiler when it is filled to the waterline and therefore it takes quite a bit of water to move an 1/8 of an inch so we need to compare against a fixed mark rather than take a guess.



As you will have your tape measure out and handy,  you might also measure vertically from the floor to points #1 and #2  (the fittings at the bottom of Returns “X” and “Y”)  and let us know the measurements.

- Rod