Steam System Not Performing

Dave in QCA

Pickup factor

Paul, I think you missed the pickup factor.

200,000 gives a gross output of 160,000.  A steam net of 119403 BTU, and steam sq ft of 498.



He needs 633 sq ft, which would be a steam net of 151,920 BTU, a Gross output of 203573 BTU and a firing rate of 254,473 BTU.   So, a firing rate of the maximum rate for this boiler of 249,000 would be the way to go.

Paul48

Thanks Dave

I knew something didn't seem right.

JoeRare

Firing Rate

The installer I used was recommended by several heating companies. He seems to be the EZGas installer in these parts. I called him back to reset the burn rate once already! When he set the burn rate the second time, he told me that I could not directly measure the gas consumption by clocking the meter because the street gas pressure was higher than the meter works at and a correction factor was needed. That is how he arrived at a 240000 burn rate. Sounded fishy but the guy was well recommended. After looking into it further (Paul48 was a help here) I learned that the installer was mistaken. The N-orifice (.302 dia) is too small and matches up nicely to my clocked burn rate. It is way too low, though! Will get this adjusted shortly.

JoeRare

Academic question

It appears that I do not understand the nameplate data on my boiler. Based on your calculations, at 249MBH I will not get the steam net 187MBH on the nameplate. Here is what I have:



D.O.E Heating Capacity: 249 MBH

Steam Net IBR: 187 MBH

Water Net IBR: 217 MBH

Firing Rate Lt Oil: 2.1 GPH

Relief Valve Capacity: 249 MBH



Have I been confusing the DOE Capacity with maximum firing rate? A firing rate of 2.1 GPH would indeed mean an input of around 294 MBH. Is this correct? For what it is worth, when I was using oil, the injector was using a 1.65 GPM nozzle at 140 psig. Not sure how to handle that in order to calculate what my input was.



Would like to understand this further before I get someone in here to correct the firing rate. Also, the Carlin EZGas is rated up to 275 MBH

JoeRare

Thanks Bob.

See my replies to Dave in QCA above. I am trying to get a better understanding of boiler nameplate data and my needed firing rate before getting someone in here to correct the problem. It should be noted that prior to converting to gas, my boiler still ran forever and never really warmed up the two radiators that are now cold. Once I get the firing rate straightened out, I will turn my attention to that issue.

JoeRare

Clean schematic

Rod, thanks for cleaning up the schematic. Grid lines are always a problem but I cannot draw straight line without them! The drops that connect to the wet return are at the locations of V1 on Main 1 and V2 Main 2. The vents are tapped into the downward facing elbow. On Main 1, the tapping is just a 1/8 NPT tapped hole into the side of the elbow ... someone's homer here. On Main 2, the tapping is integral to the elbow ... a proper elbow fitting was used here. The Mystery loop is just another takeoff from the boiler header that connects to Main 2 in the three locations indicated. It connects to the dry return portion of Main 2 about 30 inches upstream of V2 using a 3-inch pipe, to the Main 2 again at runout F and yet again just before runout G. No idea what it is doing, but starving Main 1 of steam.

Rod

Piping & Slope

Hi- I’ve been looking over your pictures and drawings and am trying to figure out how the original system was piped.  We normally assume that the “Dead Men” that did the original system were competent and all one has to do to restore the system to proper working order, is to figure out the original system and then remove the “mickey mouse” modifications that were done since then.  In your system there is piping that looks original but it’s very hard to understand the intent as it doesn’t make much sense unless maybe the “Dead Men” installed it during a period of very cold weather and their blood levels contained had too much “antifreeze”.

The Mains #1 and #2 look pretty straight forward and all that needs to be done is to give them each their own riser connection to the revised header pipe. The “Mystery Loop” and the large connector pipe which I marked “A” is a whole other question. I’ve attached a labeled picture of your piping, looking at the pictures I can guess some of the slope directions but thought the first thing to do would be to verify  them. I put a circled station number on the drawing and if you would just let me know the station number and the direction of slope (“A”or “B”) I’ll put that on the drawing.  

   In the picture JR Piping 01A, I circled the return piping near the boiler. Why it was done this way I have no idea. It should have gone down to the floor level, across and then up to the connection to the equalizer.

I’m assuming the returns marked “X” and “Y” are the returns for Main #1 and #2.   I’ve also attached your photo which I labeled JR Ping 04. Where is this located on the system?  



If anyone has an idea as to what the original intent of the large pipe labeled “A” going from the main to the end of the return, please speak up. That one has me completely baffled!

Overall it does seem that it will be that hard to get things straightened out ounce we figure out what to do with the “Mystery Loop” .

- Rod

Paul48

First

The installer is full of it. The meter measures CF, and a CF of NG is 1000 btus(close enough). You are clocking CF used. Even if it was 2lb into the house, he would still have to regulate it down, and the meter would still reflect CF used.

JoeRare

Steam Direction

Rod - Sorry for the late post. I have had a real steam professional in to look over the system. The system is running the best it has since I owned the house. I'll post the results in a separate post. I'll answer your questions about steam direction for completeness sake.



Referring to the numbers on your latest post, the pipes are sloped:



1 B to A 2 A to B 3 A to B 4 B to A 5 A to B 6 B to A 7 B to A 8 A to B

9 B to A 10 B to A 11 A to B

Pretty much parallel flow.



You are correct about the pipes labeled X and Y in the first picture. They are indeed the ends of my 2 main loops.



The location of the connection in the second picture is at location F in the Main 2 loop. It is fed from pipe B in the first picture. It is quite a mess.

JoeRare

Firing Rate

Paul, love your directness. Firing rate was indeed wrong. I had that corrected along with some other things by a real steam professional. Bolier is running at 247MBTH input and all is well.

Rod

Piping

Hi- I'm glad to hear that you found a pro who knows what they are doing. The reason I was asking about slope is because the 3 inch Pipe "A" is so odd and when you find things like that I've found it is best to go back to "square one"  and not assume anything. The Pipe "A" only makes sense if it was once part of a counterflow system.  As it is now it would seem to be detrimental to the system.   Now that you've got our curiosity up please let us know what the outcome is and how the mystery loop ends up being configured.

- Rod

JoeRare

Many Thanks to All!

I cannot tell you how satisfied I have been with everyone's help on this board. I took your advice and hired a real steam professional from this board to look over my system. I could not have been any happier with the result. I am not sure what the policy is on identifying who I used, but lets just say he drove a long way from western MA to fix my problems.



What we ended up doing first was to fix the problems with burner. The boiler was woefully under-fired and the regulator on the EZGas had not been adjusted and needed to be corrected. He installed the correct orifice (.397). Firing rate now set at 247MBTH. Once the burner was adjusted we tackled the piping problems.



We ended up being convinced that the "Mystery Loop" was a result of two boiler installations gone bad and had been added to the system over the last 50 or so years to "correct " apparent problems with the system. The 3-inch drop header was removed thereby eliminating the back-feeding of Main 2. The other portion of the mystery loop was left in place after much thought. We decided that we would leave this mess in place now as removing it may cause problems in the near boiler piping as both main loops are fed by a single 2 inch riser.



After replacing a couple of radiator vents and discussing ways to increase the main venting, we fired up the system. Now the two mains fill completely in less than 5 minutes and my radiators fill completely shortly after that. I am now able to maintain temperature in the house with a 30-35 minute cycle, terminating on temperature. That will be a huge energy savings as it took almost 3 hrs to do the same thing prior to the corrections. More importantly, for the first time in my ten years in this house I am comfortable. Temp is relatively even. Rooms that never were comfortable before are now great. I am actually looking forward to my next heating bill! BTW I am running at about 3 oz pressure and have the vaporstat set accordingly.



Again, thanks to all for your very solid advice and great willingness to help out. And a special thanks to the steam expert in western MA for traveling all the way to New Bedford to correct my problems and to answer all my questions (and there were many). We will tackle the near boiler piping and the remainder of the mystery loop in the spring.



Happy Holidays to all!

SWEI

identifying who

Please do - it's important for other readers to know that we still have some truly competent professionals out there.

nicholas bonham-carter

Happy result

I wonder if the expert you choose is registered here under the find a contractor, and if not could he register?--NBC

Paul48

Hi Joe

Isn't it refreshing to deal with someone that really knows what they are doing? I think I know who you are refering to, but please identify the man and his company.It's appropriate, and take some "after" photos next spring. We have the "before" photos. Warm Wishes and Happy Holidays.

JoeRare

Charles Garrity Plumbing and Heating, Lenox Dale, MA

Well, since I can identify who I hired to fix my steam system, here it is. Steamhead posted a reply earlier in this thread that included a "Find a Contractor" link to Charles Garrity Plumbing and after contacting them, Mr. Garrity the Younger looked over my information and trekked several hours from home to help me out.



I cannot say enough good things about the experience. It was everything I expected and more from a registered contractor who contributes to this site. Mr. Garrity is truly a steam professional, but even more importantly from a customer perspective, Mr. Garrity took the time to explain the reasons behind what he decided was the right things to do for my situation. He patiently and thoroughly answered all my questions and did so with a smile. And I asked a lot of questions ... mechanical engineers always want to know the why behind things. We are going to talk some more over the winter about doing additional work in the spring.



In a nutshell, it was the best money I spent in many a year. I can offer him my highest recommendation ... and many thanks.

Charlie from wmass

Thanks Joe

It was a pleasure. Glad to help out.