Steam System Not Performing

JoeRare

After having enough of high oil bills (1800 gals/yr), finally converted to natural gas. Used a highly regarded guy to perform the conversion. After the conversion, several of my radiators will not warmup. I mean nothing. System was not very balanced in years past anyway, but this situation will be problematic when the weather finally turns cold. The cold radiators are mostly on first floor in the room where the thermostat is located. The system fires up, runs for 2-3 hrs and finally shuts off when call for heat is satisfied. As you can guess, the second floor is very warm and the first floor is cold.



I have had no luck finding a good steam guy locally (New Bedford, MA). So I bought Dan's book and started reading. I now know enough to be dangerous. Looks like I need some guidance to evaluate what I have and where I need to go. I like the elegance and simplicity of steam and would like to make this system work as originally intended.



Here are the particulars:



Burnham V78 Steam Boiler with Carlin EZGas burner. Nameplate data is 249MBTU/hr input, IBR NET 187MBTU/hr, 778 sq feet steam. EZGas burn rate clocked at the meter at 240MBTU/hr. Honeywell pressuretrol set as low as I can after cleaning out the siphon tube (5-15 psi subtractive unit ... should replace this). I calculated all the EDR of my radiators (had to find a 1910 HB Smith catalog as all of my radiators are Princess models which are larger than standard EDR charts). Total installed EDR is 633. Insulation has been removed on the basement pipes but remains on the risers to the second and third floors. I checked the runout and main sizes against the recommendations in Dan's book and I look good for the most part. Venting on my mains use Hoffman 75's (one each main) and a second VentRite on my 3 inch main.



Biggest concern is to get my three large radiators on the first floor to heat up. One remains stone cold, another gets warm (not all the way to the last section) and then cools off and the last (on a different main) gets luke warm only for a few sections. Without these radiators working, the system takes forever to satisfy the call for heat.



Any ideas on where to look next? Any recommendations on a goof steam guy in my area? Thanks for listening.

Enreynolds

I believe

That you do not have enough Main Venting in your system.  I am assuming that you have a two pipe system, since you did not mention radiator vents.  It is highly probable that you have been paying the fuel company to squeeeeze the air out of your system, given the 2 to 3 hour run time.  I suggest that you take some pictures of your installation from all sides, from a ways back so that piping can be traced.  Also take pictures of both ends of a sample radiator, and any odd looking cast iron objects that may be hanging around the boiler room.  If you are indeed using a  5-15 psi pressuretrol, that should be replaced, most residential steam heating systems are designed  to run at a maximum of 2psi, and usually can run a lot lower for best economy.  One of the best things you could do for yourself would be to purchase one or more of Dan's Books in the Shop section above.  The one you should start with would be "We Got Steam Heat!", which will help you understand your system and what to expect.  Post those pictures, and I am sure someone can help.

Eric

JoeRare

Thanks Eric.

Sorry about the missing information. The system is a one-pipe parallel flow system so there are no "strange" cast iron objects in the basement ... just the distribution piping. There are no rise drips on the second and third floor takeoffs. The return is a dry return and looks to be properly sized (2 inch). All radiators are vented using a combination of New York Air Valve and VentRite adjustable vents. I have been buying VentRite No1s and replacing a couple of the older vents each year. I can pretty easily blow thru all the vents so I do not believe that they are clogged.



I will post some pictures in the morning. From what little I know from Dan's book, it looks like the near boiler piping is incorrectly done as the riser to the mains from the header takes off from in between the two boiler taps. There is also a very strange arrangement with a second riser from the header that connects with one of the dry returns and to the same main further upstream. This piping looks original (circa 1911), but it does not make ant sense. Don't want to question a dead man but this piping looks odd to me from a pressure standpoint.

BobC

Pressure to high?

I just replaced a V75 boiler on a much smaller system and that boiler would get up to steam in 9 minutes and it would fill all the radiators with steam in 13 minutes. My system operated at 12 oz maximum. I had a Gorton #1 on a short steam main and Hoffman 1A's on all the radiators (set for low venting rates).



You mentioned your pressuretrol was a 5-15PSI model and maybe that is part of the problem. What does the pressure gauge read when making steam and do you think it's working correctly? A lot of air valves do not operate correctly above a few PSI; they never open back up after first getting hot so more  steam can't get to the radiators. I would start by putting a 1-5 PSI pressuretrol on that system and set it for a maximum of 1.5PSI cutout and then check that all the vents are working - especially the main vents. If your going to have to buy a pressuretrol you might consider a vaporstat instead and set the cut out pressure even lower.



You said you have 3 mains, how long are they and what sized pipe? It's best to vent the mains as fast as possible and then vent the radiators slowly (but not to slow if they are very large or on upper floors).



Does the sight glass look reasonable steady (my v75 never moved more that 1/4") and is the water clean? A good skimming might be in order if it's not.



Bob

Paul48

Near-boiler Piping

First off......Main riser? to the mains, implies a steam no-no-Teeing a main riser.A main riser between boiler risers is no-no #2. A dry return back into the header is no-no #3. You should expect to have the boiler re-piped next spring. For the time being,maximum venting of the mains would help get you through this winter.Post the pictures and length and diameter of each main. Someone will be able to give you the necessary venting info for your mains. 

JoeRare

Piping Pics

Here are the pictures of my piping system. As Paul pointed out, I do have some problems with the near boiler piping. The 2.5 inch and 3 inch mains branch off of a single 2.5 inch riser from the header. The 2.5 inch main is 52 feet long and the 3 inch main is 67 feet long. This is measured from the branch to the point where the mains drop to boiler. Also, please note other "main" that takes off from the header, expands to 3 inch which connects to the 3 inch main just upstream of the drop to the boiler and also contracts to a 1.75 inch run to feed a 48 EDR radiator and a 24 EDR radiator and then connecting with the 3 inch main again. There are pictures of those connections as well.



I am going to order a new 0-5 psig pressuretrol and 0-5 psig gage. Have to start fixing this mess somewhere. Looking forward to your comments. Really want to know what you think of the strange third loop I have.

Paul48

Smorgasbord?

A little bit of everything there.......Most of it wrong.You need a pro to sort that mess out.

nicholas bonham-carter

Many problems

For the moment, try to increase your main venting, and lower the pressure as much as the pressuretrol will tolerate.

Next spring, you can start on the rectification of the main piping. Now you can get heat where it should go with a major increase in main venting.--NBC

ogs

High

Was the old boiler higher then the new one -- could be your dry return is now wet

JoeRare

Not Unexpected

Thanks to all for your comments. After reading thru Dan's book ("The Lost Art of Steam Heating"), I realized that the piping was a mess, but I was hoping that I missed something.



I have two immediate questions. First, vaporstat or pressuretrol? I am guessing that I will have to run the system at a higher pressure than desired with the bad piping so the pressuretrol is the better choice for now. My existing one does not do anything since it is the wrong one. Am I correct in thinking this way? I will pick up a new 0-5 psig gage from the local supply house tomorrow.



Second question is the venting. On my 2.5 inch main (where I have two non-functioning radiators) the elbow where the vent attaches was drilled out to 1/8 NPT and then fittings were used to adapt to the ID threads of the Hoffman. Way too small a vent opening. I am afraid that putting a second Hoffman at this location won't do much given the small vent. Was thinking of drilling out the next elbow upstream (30 inches upstream) to 3/8 NPT and putting the Hoffman there Thoughts on this? On my 3 inch main, I can put the additional Hoffman on a branch ... think I have the headroom for that.



I will let you know how it works out.

JoeRare

Old Boiler

OGS, your post snuck in there while I was typing. There is a section of old boiler leaning up against the chimney in one of the pictures. It was probably 18 inches taller than this one, but it used the same chimney port so it could not have been too much taller. Never saw it, as the Burnham was installed before I bought the house. I do not think that the dry returns are wet. I would think that this would cause some noise and this system runs absolutely silently. Never had a bang.

ogs

high

Is that the original base? I had a large commercial job where the contractor removed the boiler that had a higher water line and replaced with a lower water line.

Enreynolds

It Looks

like the differences in waterline have been addressed with a false waterline just before the hartford loop, if I am not mistaken.

Eric

JoeRare

Old Base

OGS ... no, the base is not original. It is just block. There is evidence of another base on the floor. The outline appears to be square which makes sense given the typical arrangement of older boilers. How do you verify that the dry returns stay dry? I would also think that I would really loose water height in my sight glass if indeed my returns were wet. Level in sight glass only drops about 3/4 inch during the firing cycle and is pretty steady.

Paul48

We

have up-feed, and counter-flow. I guess they couldn't make up their mind.

mgmine

Eye opener

Sorry I can't help with your problem but I see that your pipes aren't insulated. For a real eye opener check this site to see how much fuel is being wasted



http://wbdg.org/design/midg_design_echp.php

JoeRare

What Gages?

So, I head off to the local plumbing supply house. I visited 4 places, two in RI and two MA. No one had a 0-3 psig gage and only one place had a 0-5 psig gage but that gage had no internal syphon nor was is good for steam temperatures. Guess there is not much steam work around here. Will try the local FW Webb in the AM. Any suggestions on where I could get one on line? Want to get a handle on my operating pressure to start this off.



Also, I was researching pressuretrols and it looks like my best option is a 0-4 psig vaporstat. The same places I asked about the gages had nothing by 5-15 psig pressuretrols. I already have that and its the wrong one (the one I have is new ... replaced a year ago by my oil company service technician ... another guy that did not know steam)! Online ideas?



Thanks!

BobC

Buy it at

A lot of people buy low pressure gauges here - http://www.gaugestore.com/products.asp?dept=1123  These do not have a syphon tube but as long as it has a pigtail between it and the boiler you will be fine.



Running the boiler at high pressure makes everything worse in most cases, you end up with water in places it shouldn't be because 5PSI will push water a lot further than 1.5PSI will. Air vents are not happy above a couple of PSI either. I would try a pressuretrol with a lower range (1.5 to 5PSI) or perhaps a vaporstat and increase the main venting at the same time. Pex Supply has them available - http://www.pexsupply.com/pex/control/search/~SEARCH_STRING=pressuretrol Remember you need something that breaks the circuit on pressure rise.



Bob

JoeRare

Supplies

Bob - Thanks for the info. Going online now to buy the vaporstat and pressure gage and pigtail. Also, read your recent posts on another thread. Extremely useful explanations ... really appreciate your dedication to teaching us homeowners about steam.



Joe

Enreynolds

Pressure guage

Joe:  most people are using a low pressure guage without an internal syphon, they are just mounting them above a pigtail to protect them.  Commonly, a tee is placed between the pigtail and the pressuretrol/vaporstat and the the guage is mounted off that tee.  this ensures that your guage is seeing the same pressure as the control.

Eric

sami

sammy

I installed auto feed on stem one pipe system now it overfilling the the system folding out the radiator

JoeRare

Added Vaporstat and low pressure gage

Received the parts this week ... yesterday I installed a 0-4psig vaporstat and 0-5 psig gage. Set the Vstat at 2 and the differential at 1. Because of the way the system has been operating, expected to have the system cycle several times until the call for heat was satisfied. Nope. Boiler ran for 2.5 hrs and the gage did not budge off zero. Did not expect this result. I am getting plenty of steam to the usual 2 radiators on the third floor. How can I get steam to the third floor without some pressure in the boiler? Really confused about this one.



Also, I have interviewed 4 heating contractors in the last three weeks to get them lined up to fix the near boiler piping and to get the system operating as it should. None of them panned out. I am wondering if there are any experienced steam heat contractors left in southeast Massachusetts.

Steamhead

Well, the piping is a mess

and you'll need to have that corrected. The header configuration is completely wrong, so you're likely getting wet steam.



But when the EZ-Gas was put in, did they thoroughly clean the inside of the boiler?



For steam contractors, look here:



http://www.heatinghelp.com/professional/221/Charles-Garrity-and-Son-Plumbing-and-Heating

BobC

Information please

You have problems with your piping near the boiler and I hope the installers cleaned out that boiler really well before putting the EZgas on there. Working on the main piping on an old boiler can be problematic in the winter so lets see what we can do to get things working better before tearing any piping apart. All the near boiler and mains should be insulated but lets see if we can get it working better first.



I have an EZgas on my Smith 8 and everything seems fine, the house heats fine and it's a lot cheaper to run. All of my radiators heat up at about the same time and everything works the way it did on the old setup. My house is a lot smaller but steam really doesn't care how big a house it's installed in as long as the boiler can produce enough steam - and yours seems pretty well matched to the system.



It seems one of your mains is being starved for steam and we have to rebalance things so everything heats up at about the same time. It's best to vent your mains fast and the radiators slowly.



Can you make up a list of what air valves are installed on which radiator (what EDR the radiator is) and where that radiator is (distance from boiler and floor) also what main that radiator connects to? Next give the length of each main and the pipe size (circumference will do) so we can see how much air each one contains.That kind of list may make things clearer in your mind as to the system venting.



With this information we should be able to make a difference that will get the system performing the way it should. In the spring you can consider repiping the near boiler for optimum steam distribution.



Earlier you asked about the Hoffman that someone had added to an elbow on the main. A 1/8" pipe can handle 1.2 cfm at 1 oz of pressure so you might what to try a Gordon D (or MaidOMist D) at that spot because they can vent 0.33 CFM.



Bob

JoeRare

Thanks, Steamhead.

Yeah, the near boiler piping is a mess and I have no idea what is going on with the large drop header that ties into the dry return portion of the 3-inch main. With steam coming from both directions, I have been thinking that I may be trapping air in there somehow. But why don't I make a measurable head of steam?



I am experiencing wet steam. On a couple of radiator vents on the 2nd floor, I have to periodically (every few days) take the vents off and empty out the water. No noise, but the rad does not heat until I drain the vent. It will then heat up just fine.



At install of the EZGas, the installer spent about 1.5 hours cleaning and vacuuming the flue gas passages. He informed me that several of the passages were completely plugged. I did not expect that as I have my boiler cleaned out every year although I did burn alot of oil (1800 gal/yr). Did not see him clean out the firebox.



Could the boiler be underfired? I have an "N"-sized orifice in the orifice nipple. I could not find "N" in the burn rate chart in the EZGas manual. The boiler was clocked at the meter using the 2 cuft dial at 220-240 MBTU/hr which sounded about right. I will time it again the next time the unit fires.



Thanks for the contact info for Garity and Sons. Lenox MA is a good 3.5 hour drive away. I will give him a call anyway ... you never know what people would be willing to do to solve a good steam problem!

JoeRare

Thanks BobC

See my reply to Steamhead about boiler cleaning before the EZGas was installed.



Understand that we should wait until spring to tackle the piping. Lets hope for another mild winter. In the mean time, I will continue to try to find a steam specialist ... it is taking a long time to find someone and I want to be ready to go in April. Then I can take my time insulating the pipes over the summer.



I have most of that information now but will need to put it in a reasonable format to share with you guys. What is the best way to do that? Can I attach a MSWord, MSExcel, or PDF file to a post? I will shoot for Wednesday to post that information ... got to go to work to pay for the gas I'm burning.



Confused about the Gorton D on the 1/8" tapped hole in on of my elbows (2.5 inch main return at the drop to the boiler. You can see it in one of the pictures). If the hole can handle 1.2 cfm, why would I want to put a .33 cfm vent on it? Shouldn't the capacity of the vent be bigger than the orifice capacity? This is the only vent on that main and I have two cold legs off this main (serving a total of 4 radiators on two floors).



Thanks again for sticking with me on this. More information on Wednesday.

Paul48

"N" Orifice

Clock it again. Should be about 160000 btus. Letter drill "N" is .302

JoeRare

Makes Sense

Thanks, Paul, will do. Installer cautioned me that I cannot use the standard gas meter charts to clock the meter because the street line pressure is 11" H2O. This does not really make sense to me as the gas meter should compensate for line pressure to properly measure gas consumption. Is a call to gas company in order to straighten this out?

BobC

PDF file

I finally found the elbow you were talking about that has the Hoffman 75 mounted on it through a bushed up 1/4" tapping. The hoffman 75 vents at the rate of 0.5CFM so two of them would utilize just about all of a 1/4" tapping. Vents all have a CFM rating but you cant just use an open pipe because it would not close when the steam hit it. The reason I asked for the Mains length is so I could calculate the volume of air and then deduce how much venting you should have on each main. I don't need a precise number a good ballpark would probably suffice.



You can't upload word or excel files but you should be able to upload a pdf file.



Bob

Paul48

No

If, for instance there was 2lb gas coming into the residence (unlikely, but possible),all the gas fixtures in the house would have to have regulators, including the boiler. It would have to be regulated to a max 14" W.C. The meter measures cu ft, and by clocking it, you are coming up with the cf/h and converting that to btu/h. A cf of gas is approx 1000 btus . http://www.hvacprotech.org/toc/clocking_gas_meter.htm

JoeRare

Let me get this straight

Paul, if I understand what you are saying, the meter will accurately measure cuft of gas passing through the meter independent of the inlet line pressure. The installer was incorrect in applying a correction factor to the measured reading to account for line pressure. If that is the case, then I am probably underfired. BTW, that is the exact meter chart that I am using.

Paul48

Right

What did you clock it at?

JoeRare

Venting

Never meant to imply that I should not put a vent in the tapped hole in the elbow. My question was a general one. In general, I would think that you would want the venting capacity of the vents to be greater than the capacity of the piping/fittings to the vent for maximum venting. On second thought, having the tapping be the limiting factor would not be a good thing incase more venting is needed. Making the tapping as large as possible and control the venting by adding vents is a better rule of thumb. I'll increase the tapping size to 1/4NPT and put on a second Hoffman.



For rough numbers: 3-in main is 94 feet long. 2.5-in main is 69 feet long. This measurement is from the start of the main (after the branch from the header) to the elbow at the drop leg to the boiler (where the two Hoffmans are). There is another 45 feet of 2-in "main" that runs from the header to the 3-in main. Not sure how you handle that one. I do have to evacuate that run too.



I will detail out the piping with the location/EDR of each radiator takeoff and post a pdf file later this week. Thanks for all your help!

JoeRare

WOW

Measured just over 47 seconds on 2 cuft dial. Pretty repeatable. Right around 153000. Looks like I am underfired quite a bit! Could explain why I cannot get any measurable steam head.

nicholas bonham-carter

Sammy-post your question separately

Repost this so your question isn't lost.

In the meantime, turn off the valve to your auto-feeder, and see if that changes the flooding problem.--NBC

BobC

More venting

How long does it take each of your vents to get hot (outlet of the

boiler to each main vent) from a cool start? You would like all the

mains to fill with steam quickly and at about the same time. At some

point in time the near boiler piping has to be insulated and the rest of

the piping in the cellar should be insulated also to save fuel. I was able to cut

the time it took my main vent to get hot by about 25% by insulating the

piping. When you consider how many times a boiler runs during the

winter that's a lot of fuel I saved.



With mains that long your going to need more venting. the 94 ft 3" main contains about 4.6 cu ft of air and needs a couple of Gorton #2 vents. The 69 ft 2-1/2 in main contains 2.4 cu ft of air and needs a Gorton #2 in addition to the Hoffman 75. These are starting points for the venting you could need more if the venting backpressure is high.



How far back from the current vent locations are the last radiator feeds on those mains? Vents are usually put about 2 ft after the last radiator takeoff if feasable. If your vents are a lot more than that distance you might want to see if you can get someone to weld a threaded inlet port on the upper surface of the mains so you can mount vents there, you will need some kind of antler setup to mount more than one vent.



Main vents and insulation are not cheap but they do pay for themselves in fuel savings. All of the above will help but the piping will have to be addressed in the spring, try and find a good steam pro to go over that piping.



Bob

JoeRare

Here is the Information

Hello Guys ... Sorry it took so long to put to put this together. Holidays are in full swing and time is at a premium



Two pdf files are attached. The first one (Steam Piping Runs) is a plan view layout of the piping system. The location of each runout on the mains is located and labeled with a letter. The locations of the vents are also noted. All dimension are in inches. Dimensions have been double checked and are reasonably accurate.



The second pdf file (EDR and Piping Calcs) contains the details of each radiator, vents used, runout pipe size and length to riser, evaluation of main and runout capacity, boiler particulars and current fining rate. Each radiator is assigned to its runout and referenced to the layout drawing. I hope that I was able to put things together in a way that makes sense to you. What do you make of that mystery loop? The system is basically parallel flow but the addition of the mystery loop makes part of main 2 counterflow. What were they trying to do with this loop?



My immediate concern is to try to improve the venting so that I can get thru the winter. I have not yet done anything to increase the venting. Everything is as shown.



Thanks to all for taking a look at this for me. Looks like winter is still several weeks away based on the long range forecast. It has not been too uncomfortable in the house yet. Nothing a fire in the fireplace and a turkey in the oven can't fix ... yet.

Dave in QCA

Good Data

Excellent Data!  And, I believe that unless you made a typographical error, the answer is right under your nose!

You say you have a v78 boiler that is rated for 249,000 BTU input.  The rest of the ratings of this boiler indicate it is a perfect match for your system. But, the current firing rate of your new burner is about 100,000BtU short.  You have told us that the Burner is burning 153,000BTU/Hr, as clocked at the meter.  It should be 249,000 BTU/HR.   Who put your burner in?  They have it adjusted incorrectly, or it is the wrong model.

BobC

Orifice too small

If you look at page 7 of the EZGas manual you will see a table that shows what size orifice you need drilled out on that burner vs the BTu input you want. Call the installer and ask why he used the size he did. I would contact Carlin and ask them what size orifice if you have any doubts.



Bob

Paul48

Data

A  21/64 orifice gives you an input of 200,000 btus, net of 160,000 btus and 666sqft of steam. I don't know whether that boiler should be down-fired that much.

Rod

Where are the drops?

Hi- I cleaned up your drawing so it is easier to read. Nice work BTW! Where on the system are the drops that connect to the wet return? Of Main #1, Main #2 and the Mystery Loop, how well are they working at this time?

- Rod