9 residential

jrbayside

Sorry i cant find my previous questions, But i had a water feed problem during the summer which flooded the header and who knows what else. I shut the water off and drained out the system of flooded pipes.



    Back to square one, I still cant get 1 vertical riser to get hot, I installed a gorton #2 on the second floor riser, but stiil doesnt get hot. I am going to check the vertical line on street level to see if it is still pitched the right way. baffled again, any suggestions would be great.

p.s. pressuretroll is set correctly and it runs well, no short cycling.

I am going to check some rads to see if water went far enough to cause a blockage. Any sugggestions would be great,

Thanks ron

Steam_Starter

I would...

Pull all the vents on each rad that are supplied by this takeoff...start the system and take a look to see if you have air coming out of any of the rads.  If you do not, there is most likely standing water in the riser (if it does go horizontal at one point.)



Just be careful; if steam IS getting to that level at some point you could get a nice hot touch.  Maybe better off doing one rad at a time so you are not running from room to room.



Question; was everything OK before the Great Flood?



JLG

nicholas bonham-carter

No heat radiator

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum/profile/5507493/jrbayside

There are your old posts. See if you can post some pictures here of your boiler piping. Incorrect piping may be throwing a lot of water up into that riser.

Don't rely on the setting of the pressuretrol, but instead get 0-3 psi gauge on the same pigtail, so you know what the actual pressure is.--NBC

jrbayside

got risers hot

As i SAID, GOT RISERS HOT BY PUTTTING GORTON #2 on the vertical riser on second floor. Problem now is the rads dont get hot and I drained any water, and put bigger vents. Any ideas would bo a great help.



                           Ron, 9 units

nicholas bonham-carter

Radiator testing

Get a full port ball valve, the same diameter as the radiator vent tapping, and put it on in place of the vent. Fire the boiler, and then open the valve, observing how the radiator heats up. You may also hold a slip of tissue in front of the discharge, to see whether the air is constant in velocity, or is intermittent (such as blowing through trapped water).

This is much safer than just removing the vent. You may also be able to hear sloshing water.--NBC

jrbayside

diff. subject

I am curious to find out if the automatic water feed is adjustable, so I can keep a little more water in the boiler. It seems to work better with slightly more water in he sight glass. It is a Mcdonnel-Miller water feed.

nicholas bonham-carter

feed adjustments

i think it's in the manual from M-M.

are you losing water? where is it going?--nbc

jrbayside

9 residential

Not losing water, but seems to work better with a little more water in the sight glass

jrbayside

9 unit residential

I got hot vertical risers, but the rads next to the risers are not getting hot. Drained the rads, checked the vents, all is pitched right, dont know what to try next. Still need some more help. thanks guys

jrbayside

9 residential

I also put on a 0 -3 psi guage, but the pressure doesnt move the guage. Could this be lack of fuel (gas) getting to the boiler. Just pulling my hair out.



Thanks, Ron

JStar

Rads

Can you hear or see if the radiator valves and nearby piping is leaking?

jrbayside

9 residential

no leaks, vents have air coming  out still miffed

BobC

Least resistance

Sometimes when certain radiators don't heat it is a matter of the steam taking the path of least resistance. I understand it all seemed to work before the overfilling but now we just have to go step by step to try and understand what is going on. Is the 0-3 gauge on the boiler or on the problem radiators?



How long does the boiler run to satisfy the thermostat and what kind of vent do you have on the radiator nearest the thermostat?



Do you know how long it takes the steam to get to the vent on the main that feeds this vertical riser and how many steam mains are there? What kind of main vents are being used and what kind of radiator vents? If they are adjustable, what are they set to?





Bob

jrbayside

9 residential

At wits end. I had my friend and most trusted and  competent plumber and boiler pro come by and said that the boiler gas supply is too small. It should have a 2 inch supply line. It is  a 550,000 btu w-m boiler and has a 1 1/2 in supply. I get no reading on the 0-3 psi gauge and I dont know what to do next but try  a new 2 inch supply through my class 4 meter. What are your thoughts?

JStar

Gas

What gas pressure do you have when the boiler is off, and when the boiler is running?

SWEI

gas supply

pipe sizing depends on the length of run from the meter.  1-1/2" black pipe should handle 100 feet of developed length.  Did your boiler pro measure the supply pressure while the boiler fired? How low did it drop, and what is the minimum inlet pressure for the gas valve?

jrbayside

9 residential

I cannot answer that, the bioler was replaced by previous owner and did every thing on the cheap. its a w-m egh 125 boiler 550000 btu with 1 1/2 inch supply. it hasnt worked right since i bought the building. As i mentioned, my friend and boiler expert immediately said the supply line is to small, hence could be why i am not getting a reading on the low pressure gauge. Going to put a 2 inch supply and hope to get a little pressure. I have some long runs with gorton 2s on the end but still cant get the steam all the way to higher anfd further rads. I suppose it cant hurt to increase the size  of the supply line in hopes of some more pressure from the boiler. What do you think?

jrbayside

9 residential

what would the difference be from 1 1/2 to 2 inch pipe do if the pressure is the same?

jrbayside

9 residential

would increased volume help if pressure is the same to achieve a better flame under the boiler?

nicholas bonham-carter

Fuel starvation?

Why not clock the gas meter, and find out how many btu's of gas you are burning. If you find that you are below the stated minimum for the boiler, then you can try measuring gas pressure, etc. --NBC

SWEI

Going to put a 2 inch supply and hope

Bad idea.  Measure first.

SWEI

difference between 1-1/2" and 2" pipe

depends on the developed length of pipe and the volume of gas flowing through it.

jrbayside

9 residential

If all is correct, will increase in pipe size provide more fuel?

SWEI

more fuel

maybe - it depends on the meter, other appliances, etc. 

nicholas bonham-carter

clocking the meter

when you clock the meter, you should have all other gas appliences off apart from the boiler, then turn them back on one by one as the boiler is running, until you have a complete picture of your gas supply. the gas company should be able to help with testing the meter, or the regulator.

until you do this test, you are shooting in the dark.--nbc

jrbayside

9 residential

the prob is that I supply 9 apts with gas, 2 water heaters, and the boiler. Thats why I want to try the bigger line.     I have a class 4 meter which I was told would put out up to a 5

SWEI

I want to try the bigger line

You have yet to determine whether the burner is operating correctly or if gas pressure is dropping.  Do not start changing parts before you understand the cause of your problem.

jrbayside

9 residential

Any suggestions how to do it with all the other things connected to my meter?4

jrbayside

9 residential

I know all you guys are right in what your telling me to try, but believe it or not changing the pipe size is the easiest for me to do first, even though it is not the logical sequence to follow.

I sincerely DO appreciate all your help and input.



Ron

SWEI

let us know how it works out

IMO measuring gas pressure drop when the boiler fires will require less of both time and money.

jrbayside

9 residential

Why cant I get oressure on my 0-3 psi guage. the flame is good, and I see no leaks?

jrbayside

9 residential

Hello all again, The longest run of main is about 130 feet. It gets hot to about 5 feet from the takeoff to a vertical riser. I had 2 gorton #2s at the end, but I am going to move them to about 2 feet from the end. Hope it helps. I cant understand why it doesnt get hot where it goes to the vertical riser, there is a union there which I split, but still no steam comes out from it. I am going to work from the top down to see if any horizontal runs are not pitched correctly. I did repitch one last year, the vertical got hot, and then went cold again. Still miffed, but will not give up.

Thanks, Ron

jrbayside

9 residential

Yet another question, is there a pressure control adjustment on a w-m egh-125 steam boiler?

jrbayside

9 residential

ok, Ive tried everything to get this  one riser hot. I put 2 gorton #2 on the long main run.

I changed the fuel pipe from 1.5 to 2.0 inches. I repitched a horizontal that was no good.

I also put 2 gorton #2 s on the riser in  the middle floor. I drained every radiator, I changed the rad valves accordingly. Today I used a wet dry vac to check and blowout the riser and main. when I blew it down, no water came out. When I sucked on the rad supply valve, I got hot pipes. Is the a pressure control on a wiel mcclain egh-125 thay I could possibly adjust to increase the pressure in the line?

dont know what to do next, it does not make any sense.



thanks again. Ron

BobC

4AM

They heat the entire Empire State Building with 2.5 - 3 PSi, That building is 102 stories, 2 PSI should be plenty assuming you have a normal steam system.



Have you checked all the pipes with a level to be sure everything is pitched correctly? The fact the vacuum got the steam to move tells us the pipe is clear but does not mean there isn't water someplace that is condensing the steam before it gets to the radiators.



Does the boiler ever shut off for a minute or two and then fire again? That would indicate it is shutting down on pressure. If it never shuts down on pressure and can't heat everything you should check to be sure it's burning the correct amount of gas; if your not burning the right amount of gas you might not be making enough steam. Try clocking the meter at 4am tonight when everyone is asleep so you can be sure they aren't using gas stoves, make sure the hot water isn't firing when you clock the meter.



Bob

jrbayside

9 residential

I have not checked all the pipes for pitch because many are not accessable, but I will check the main which is very long and supplys the vertical that does not get hot. There is a union right before the  vertical, that I split, and no steam comes out when shes running. I suspect there might be a problem right before the union.



The boiler does not shut off for a min or two, it will run for about 20 min, then shut off.



about clocking the meter, what am I looklng for?

nicholas bonham-carter

Clocking the meter

Do a search here for clocking the meter. You are checking on the gas consumption, measured by the 1cu ft dial on the meter for 1minute, to make sure how many btu is being put out by the burner. There are many problems beside the size of the pipe which could cause the burner to be under or over fired. If the burner is under fired, then not enough steam will be made to fill all the piping, and the pressure will be zero all the time with no cycling on pressure.

If no steam is coming out of the union when you open it, then the obstruction must be between the union and the boiler. Check the takeoffs, and look for where steam is and isn't. There is probably a sag in the pipe at some point trapping water, and preventing the steam from getting through. Drawing a diagram of the piping can help reduce confusion, especially if the points where steam is and isn't are marked.--NBC

BobC

Clocking

You need to time how much time it takes the smallest dial (1/2 cu ft usually) to make a revolution (to even out errors I usually time it for 4 revolutions).



Get a watch with a sweep second hand or a stopwatch. Measure the time in seconds that it takes the drive dial hand to make one complete revolution (4 revolutions for accuracy).



Plug the meter drive (cubic feet) and the time (seconds) into the following equation:





3600 [secs /hr] X 1 [cu ft measured]

______________________________

               [seconds]



Example:

1/2 CF dial revolves 4 times in 1 min 10 sec; that is 2 CF in 70 sec



3600 x 2

-----------   = 102.9 CF per hour gas flow rate

  70



102.9 CF is 102,900 BTU's or 1.029 therms per hour.



Note your gas bill has a "Thermal factor' that corrects the reading for the actual fuel content of the natural gas (mine was 1.0368) so this is really 106,700 BTU's or 1.067 therms per hour.

jrbayside

9 residential

Thanks so much for the info, I will do this tomorrow and let you know. I do believe there must be a sag or obstruction because the steam should come out from the union. I will check the main with a level to try to find out.



Again thanks for all your help.   Ron

jrbayside

9 residential

Hello all, did what you told me to do, putting out 315,000 btu's according to the formula. I dont think fuel is an issue. I did check the pitch on the run giving me a headache,   the  pitch was in the wrong direction. I jacked up the pipe and got the pitch going to the boiler, but it needs a little more. I might have also created another water trap by doing so, but tomorrow is another day. I am going to get a couple of lolly columns to support the pipe correctly, cause I cant take off the pipe and do it correctly. We will see how it goes tomorrow. Again thanks for your support and help.



                       Ron

Steve_175

Pitch

If the pipes are hanging from floor joist you should install the lolly columns under the joist instead of the pipe. Or add some pipe hangers in some key areas and then install the columns under the joist.