Knocking pipes

VickiS

Wow

You guys are truly amazing.  Thank you all so much!  I was able to get the water level down to the measurement given and you can't even hear the system when it's running now.  It was so quiet last night that it actually had me a little worried.  and a number of the troublesome radiators are throwing out heat again, and others that were making noise at the air vent are no longer doing that although I do still have one that has a lot of noise coming from the air vent.  The psi on the boiler is also down from 2 to 0 so I guess that's good.



I turned the pressuretrol main down to 2.5 (it was originally set at 5) but didn't adjust the diff.  Could you tell me what these numbers should really be?  I've attached a picture so you can see the current setting...hopefully you are able to zoom in to see the readings. 



Thanks!



Vicki

VickiS

Re: Thermostat

Thank so much for the information, Rod.  I will make a note of this so I can consider once things settle down a bit. 



Vicki 

VickiS

Re: LWCO leak

Thanks Rod!  The leak isn't bad, just a slow drip.  It's seems to be worse right after I've drained water out and then seems to stop after a while.  It is nice to know that the system will still run even when it's neglected but I don't plan on following the pattern of the last owners.    I want to get it back in shape because I sure can't afford to have to spend a ton right now to fix something major were to happen.



Vicki

VickiS

Re: LWCO leak

Thanks Rod!  The leak isn't bad, just a slow drip.  It's seems to be worse right after I've drained water out and then seems to stop after a while.  It is nice to know that the system will still run even when it's neglected but I don't plan on following the pattern of the last owners.    I want to get it back in shape because I sure can't afford to have to spend a ton right now to fix something major were to happen.



Vicki

Rod

Pressuretrol

Hi Vicki-

          It's great to hear that things seem to be getting back to normal.

  The Pressuretrol settings look okay. You might try to lower the upper limit from 2.5 PSI to 2 PSI. (The standard start point is 2 PSI upper with a 1.5 differential) Lower than this, it is how low can you go and still have the system operate properly. How low you can go depends on the qwerks of each individual system (A 2 pipe system can operate much lower than a 1 pipe system)

Pressuretrols aren’t all that accurate at lower pressures and a lot of people use a Vaporstat (similar to a Pressurtrol) to achieve  lower pressures. (BTW - If you ever do change to a Vaporstat, hang on to your Pressuretrol! It looks like it is one of the older type (mercury switch) which are much more accurate and reliable than the newer ones.)   Lowering the pressure down from 5 to 2.5 PSI is a really good move. I think maybe I’d stay there (at 2.5 PSI max) for a while and just see how well the system works.



You may want to add a 0 -3 PSI in the future to you boiler as with these it is easier to keep track of the pressure.  You need to keep the 0-30PSI gauge as it is required by code /insurance and just add the additional gauge. Gauges are available for the gauge store on the internet and most people use the model # 33020    0-3PSI Gauge   http://www.gaugestore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=33020

I’ve attached a photo of a typical gauge setup



Boiler water level- You might want to keep an eye on the boiler water level for a few days to see if it remains stable.  If it goes up or down you may have a leak somewhere. Either in the water feeder line or in the steam systems piping



Since the thermostat was set so high, the burner was on for a very long time period and this plus the high heat has probably loosened up a lot of dirt in the pipes which you are now seeing in the boiler as dirty water. If the boiler water is very dirty you may want to blow down your LWCO regularly.  The following is instructions of how to do this.





Blowing Down the LWCO

First of all be careful as the water coming out of the valve during the blow down is extremely HOT!

Steam Boiler Low Water Cut Off Valve Flushing Procedure:

1. Put a 5 gal. bucket under the end of valve.

2. Open and shut the valve several times  - each time for just a few seconds. This stirs up and sediment in the unit.

3. Wait a moment or two and repeat the procedure several times until you see clear water coming out of the valve.

4. Wait 15 seconds and open and close the valve again. If you see clear water coming out at this time you have completed the flush, If not repeat the flushing.

The total amount of water drained off should normally be around ½ gal to 1 gallon.  If the water is extremely dirty you may have to flush more.

5. If you have an automatic water feeder it should function and add water at this time to make up for the water lost from the blow down.  If you don’t have an automatic water feeder than you must manually fill the boiler back to the normal waterline.  The boiler needs to be cold (cool) and shut off when you add the water as you don’t “shock” the boiler by adding too much cold water at one time.   

6.When ever you do add “new” water to the boiler you should immediately afterward start the burner and bring the new water in the boiler to the boil. This drives off dissolved oxygen which is very corrosive and will shortener your boiler’s life span.



How often should you blow down the Low Water Cut Off?

That depends-

Daily if there has been recent work done on your system and the water is very dirty,

Normally once a week should be fine when the water is fairly clean.



I won’t get into testing the  LWCO at this time. The book (We Got Steam Heat!) will explain it better than I could.

Attached below is a drawing showing the inner workings of the LWCO. The reason it needs to be regularly blown down is to make sure sediment doesn’t clog the unit and impede the float from working properly.  When the water level drops, so does the float and when it reaches a set point the float activates an electric switch that stops the burner.





Adding “new” water to your boiler - (Some of this is a repeat of the instructions above.)

Add “new” water when the boiler is shut off and had a chance to cool down. (This also gives the condensate (water) in the system to get a chance to return to the boiler, if you fill the boiler to the design waterline before all the water returns you will end up with too much water)  Adding cold water to a hot boiler can cause thermal shock and crack the boiler. (This occurrence is just a slight possibility but it is good idea to keep it in mind.)

To add water on your system- Open the Water Feeder Shut Off valve and then push the button on the water feeder to add water. When the water is at the correct level, shut/close the Water Feeder Shut Off Valve. You should then start the boiler’s burner  and bring the new water to the boiler (you don’t have to make steam) as this drives off any dissolved oxygen which can be very corrosive to your boiler and shorten its life span.



You shouldn’t have regularly to add much water other than to replace that which is lost fglushing the LWCO. Ivf you are adding a lot of water that means there is either a steam leak somewhere (like at a the radiator valve steam) or a leak in the wet return piping.



Ideally the feeder should be on its own loop with an  isolation valves and a bypass. I ‘ve attached drawing that shows this. It’s fine the way it is piping now and I wouldn’t change it till you possibly renew the Water Feeder sometime in the future.



Okay since now we seem to have the boiler water level under control what other questions do you have?

- Rod

VickiS

Water feeder

Thank you so much for all the detailed instructions, Rod!  I was doing the flushing incorrectly but I totally understand the reason for the way you described.    It also had not clicked with me, even though I had been reading about the need to start the boiler after was added, that you needed to do that after a weekly flushing.  I'll keep the setting at 2.5 for a bit and watch things.  And I will keep in mind all your other information.



So, just when I thought things were going well, and before I could even come up with another question to ask, I came home from work tonight to discover that the leak must be bigger than I thought it was.  There was probably a good 1 1/2 inches in my bucket and the level in the site glass was about 1/2" below my marked line on the site glass.



The fact that it was below the line on the site glass means that the boiler would not have come on even if the temp had fallen below the setting, correct?  I also think I have been mistaken about the water feeder although up til this point I guess it hasn't mattered since we've always had too much water in the boiler.  Can you tell me if the picture I've attached is a manual water feeder?  It sure seems to be since no water seems to be going into the system but it did when I pushed the red button.  I had to push it multiple times in order to bring the water back up to the line.



Thanks!



Vicki

Rod

Boiler Water Levels

Hi Vicki-

   At this point you’ll find that you are taking in so much information about steam that it gets really confusing but soon it all starts to fit in place and make sense. At least that was the way it worked for me when I first got into steam heating.



On adding water to the boiler- Any time either manually or by  the automatic water feeder, water is added to the boiler,  the “new” water needs to be brought to a boil in order to drive off the excess oxygen. This exists in “new” water similar to the bubbles in a soft drink when you open the bottle. You don’t  have to heat the water to the point of  making steam,  just heat it close to the boiling point.



Leaky LWCO Valve-   You might want to get in a pro to replace this for you. I think I mentioned before that McDonald Miller, the manufacturer,  recommends they be replaced every 10 years.

If you want to just replace the valve,  parts are available for that too. If you need a parts manual, email me and I’ll send you one. To email me - just click on my name and the button Contact User.

      It’s very important to fix any leaks, especially with an Automatic Water Feeder, as the leak will cause the water level to drop to the point where the automatic water feeder will come on and fill the boiler back up. The water keeps leaking out and the Automatic Water Feeder keeps filling it up. After a while of this repeated pattern,  there is a lot of  “New”  water  with its dissolved oxygen in your boiler. As mentioned earlier dissolved oxygen can be very corrosive which will shorten the boiler’s life span.  Due to this  and the possibility of the boiler flooding, many people choose to add water to their boiler only manually.  Your present Automatic Water feeder should be piped differently as shown in the attached diagram. It’s not something that has to be changed now but if sometime in the future you need to replace your Automatic Water Feeder the new one should be piped as in the diagram.



To add water to your boiler:

1. Open the Shut Off Valve

2. Hold the Red Button down - this will open the electric valve and water will

    be fed to you boiler as long as you hold down the red button.

3. When the water in the boiler is to the correct level relase the button

    and close the Shut Off Valve



Water Levels in the Sight Glass

Let’s review an normal boiler cycle. When the boiler is cold,  most of the water in the system is in the boiler and the water in the Sight Glass should be at the Design Water Level.  When the burner comes on, the water in the boiler is heated and produces steam. This steam (water) leaves the boiler and enters the piping and radiators in the system and since it has left the boiler, the water level in the sight glass begins dropping  down.  The water level continues dropping until some of the water (steam - now condensed)  returns to the boiler by way of the return piping.



 This is what is called the normal operating range.  (Which in the attached diagram is shown in purple) If the water is slow returning to the boiler or the water level was low at the start, the water level in the sight glass may drop down below the normal operating level and reach the  level where the Automatic Water Feeder is activated.  If the water level continues to drop further

(example from a leak developing in the system) it will reach a point that the Low Water Cut Off activates and shuts OFF the burner.



The levels where the Automatic Water Feeder activates and the LWCO activates varies between boiler makes, models and sizes and may be slightly different than what is shown in the diagram.



Once a month during the heating season it is a good idea to test your LWCO. This is done by turning the burner on and slightly opening the Blow Off Valve on the LWCO.  The idea is to drain down the water in the boiler till the LWCO activates and shuts off the burner. This should happen just before the water completely disappears from the sight glass.  You might want to wait a while till you feel more confident about handling your system before performing this test which was the reason I held off mentioning it before. There also may be a better description of how to do this test in “We Got Steam heat!”   At this point as long as you are doing a weekly blow off to clean the float, things are fine.

-- Rod

VickiS

Re: Boiler level

Oooh, boy I was confused.  Thanks Rod for explaining things and straightening me out.  I understand much better now.  So the automatic water feeder won't kick in until the water in the site glass gets nearer to the bottom of the glass, correct?  Thank you for all the diagrams.  I'm a very visual person so they have helped tremendously.  I'll let you know about the info for the parts. Not sure that something we want to tackle on our own at this point or not but I let you know if we go that direction.  Thank you for the offer of help there.



I've ordered the We've Got Steam book earlier in the week.  I'm interested in reading it.



Thanks so much for all your help.



Vicki