Knocking pipes

VickiS

I'm hoping you will have some thoughts on how to correct this.  We recently purchased an 1890's house that heats with a one pipe steam system.  The system seemed to be working fine although we know one vent on a radiator needs to be replaced and a couple of the radiators need to be shimmed because they are sloped incorrectly.  The other day, the thermostat got hit without our knowledge and set to a really high setting.  The place was like a sauna by the time we got home that afternoon.  Ever since then the pipes have been knocking like crazy every time the system kicks on, huge bangs like a sledgehammer would make, and you can hear it travel thru each "zone" of the house for lack of a better term...meaning that the radiators seem to be connected in some kind of a line and you can follow the knocking for the most part from radiator to radiator from the first floor to the second to the third.  Some of the radiators also are making loud gurgling noises kind of like there is water sloshing around in them while this knocking is going on...and this is a steam system not a hot water one.  The knocking is quite loud, wakes us up at night, and it makes the pipes jump which is quite concerning.  Any thoughts on what caused this to start happening and how to correct this are most appreciated as I haven't a clue and know nothing about a steam heat system.



Also, after the knocking first started none of the radiators at the front of the house would heat up...where they would prior to the thermostat mishap.  Today all but two of them started putting out some heat but it takes a long time for them to heat up and the other two are still stone cold even though on the one I can hear some air being slightly vented from it.



Thanks so much for any help you can provide.

Rod

Knocking pipes

Hi-

For some reason you would seem to have excess water in your system

Check you waterline - is it at the  proper level?

Check your steam pressure- it should be below 2 PSI

Make sure all your radiator steam valves are fully open

- Rod

nicholas bonham-carter

Knocking shop

Make sure ALL the valves are fully on, and never turned off, otherwise the water will collect in the radiators and cause water hammer, which can be destructive as well as annoying.

Keep the thermostat set at the same temp all the time as you will not save much if any fuel with a setback.

Get some of the steam books from the shop here, and you will learn how to keep your system quiet-even-economical.

All radiators should heat at the same time on a floor, and if they don't report back here for more steps to take.

Check the water level in the sight glass on the boiler, to make sure that some auto-fill valve ( the work of the dell) has not also now over-filled the boiler.NBC

Paul48

Pitch

those radiators and check the mains for sags.

VickiS

Re: Knocking Pipes

Thanks Rod!  I know my following questions are going to be stupid so I will apologize in advance.



How do I check the waterline?  Do you mean in the boiler itself? or in the site glass?  The water in the site glass sits constantly at the min line marked on it, which is about 2/3 of the way up the glass.



When you say steam pressure do you mean on the pressuretrol or in the boiler.  The pressuretrol was set at 5 for the main and about 1 for the diff (that one is hard to tell as the last number marked on the scale is 2 but the setting is below that) but I moved the pressuretrol setting back to about 2.5 although from what I've been reading it should really be lower than that, correct?  The gauge on the boiler is around 2 psi.  Does that make any difference when setting the pressuretrol?



All the valves are fully open on all the working radiators...one leaks, which we discovered prior to the thermostat incident, so that one has been closed for a couple of weeks now.  If the valve is fully closed we shouldn't be getting a hammering effect inside that radiator even if there is water in it, correct?



I think I forgot to mention that two of the radiators were spitting water out of the air valves yesterday.  I have to assume that is not normal.  Does that mean that water is in the radiator which could be due to a pitching problem? or that the pressure is too high?  something else?  Both of these radiators tended to hiss even when the system was working properly so I think the air vents are bad anyway.



Vicki

VickiS

Re: Pitch

Thanks Paul!

We are working on getting the pitch corrected but I'm finding that easier said than done.  I tried working with one yesterday and couldn't even move it enough to get a shim under it.  This was a radiator that I could have sworn I hear water rumbling around in when the system was on so I don't if it's just got a lot of water in it or if I'm just weak.  Hopefully it's the latter.    Is there a way to check to see if water really has collected inside the radiators?  And it's further complicated by all the radiators having covers on them so trying to work with checking the pitch, the valves and the air vents is quite challenging.



By checking the mains, do you mean the middle part of the radiator to make sure it hasn't sagged down in the middle when going from one end to the other?  so that the right side is high, middle is low and left side is back high again?  If I find this, how do I correct it as there is nothing to shim on in the middle of the radiators?



Vicki

VickiS

Re: Knocking shop

Thanks Nicholas!

All the valves on the working radiators are fully open except for one that seems to have a broken valve because we can't get it to move either more open or more closed.



We don't move the thermostat, haven't even gotten to the point of thinking about trying to conserve energy as we just moved into the place about 3 weeks ago.  The mishap with the thermostat was quite by accident and seems to have thrown the whole system out of whack and it's definitely protesting. 



The radiators on each floor definitely do not heat at the same time.  On the main floor, there is a pipe that is the nearest one to the boiler that heads to the second floor..that pipe is the first one we notice getting hot when the system kicks on.  Then the radiators from the middle of the house to the back get hot, as well as the ones one the second floor directly above this section.  Then it seems to move to the front of the house but it takes a long time for the pipes or the radiators at the front of the house on any level to get warm.  And two of the radiators are not heating up at all even though their valves are fully open.  And at least one of the pipes that is knocking like crazy doesn't get hot at all but it sounds awful.



The site glass is still showing the water at the min level, which is about 2/3 up the glass.  Would the water there show higher if the boiler was overfilled?



Vicki

VickiS

Pitching Radiators

I can tell by using a level how the radiators are tilted...how far do I need to tilt them towards the valve for them to be in the right position?  For example, one of the radiators is slightly tilted towards the valve...meaning when I look at the bubble in the level, the top of the bubble just barely touches the one line so you can see that it is slightly off center of the two lines.  should the bubble actually cross one of the lines to some extent?  and if so, how much?  Thanks!



Vicki

Paul48

Re: Mains

If you look at the site, you'll see a one pipe system with the pitch of the mains exagerated  for  clarity. But, that pitch is important, and must be constant. If the mains develop a sag across the middle, they will hold water.http://www.gogeisel.com/geiselonline/support/Hoffman/Steam_Vents/Basic_Steam_Heating_Systems_1_2_Pipe.pdf

VickiS

Re: Mains

Ah, ok, you meant the main supply lines...okay, I will see what I can find out about them.  Thanks.



Vicki

BobC

how much is enough?

The pitch of the radiator has to be just enough to coax the water to drain out of the radiator, 1/8" is plenty.



Also check the level your using because a lot of them are not very accurate. Make sure it reads the same when you flip it around, if its off usually a few layars of masking tape will build it up enough so it does read the same both ways. Don't use electrical tape because it compresses to easily, paper does not compress.



Bob

VickiS

Re: how much is enough

Thanks Bob.  I hadn't thought of that so I will check both ways with the level to see what the reading is.  I've also noticed that the one I have has a magnetic strip on it and it tends to give me different readings for some reason.  I'm seriously thinking about pulling the magnetic strip off.

Vicki

Rod

Water Hammer

Hi Vicki-  Don't worry about asking questions, asking questions is how we all learn.

The Boiler's operating water line is measured from the base of the boiler where it touches the floor. This measurement is found in the Installation manual. If you don't have the manual let us know the make and model number and we can look it up for you. (You can get this info from the ID plate on the boiler)

It sounds like you are using a short torpedo level.  Ideally you should use a carpenter's bubble level  however you can use a shot level if you put a straight flat strip of wood on top of the radiator and put the level on top of the strip.

Lifting the radiator to shim it - Use some blocks and a 2x4 as a lever to lift the radiator very slightly. There just as to be enough slope to "encourage " the water to leave the radiator. Too much slope can cause a problem too! Use stacks of quarters ($0.25) to adjust the slope to where you want it and replace it later with a permanent shim of the same thickness.

- Rod

VickiS

Site glass completely full

We've double checked the site glass and determined that it is completely full of water.  The water is so clear it makes it difficult to tell.  I know it's not supposed to be as I can clearly see min and max lines marked on the glass.  Does that mean that there is too much water in the boiler?  How do we correct the water level so that it's back between the two lines?  I've read about draining water from the tank but I have no idea how to go about doing that.  Thanks so much for the help!



Vicki

Rod

Flooded Boiler

Hi-  The flooded boiler is probably the source for the majority of your present problems.

There should be a drain tap on the base of the boiler that you can use to drain out the excess water.  Let us know what the make and boiler is and we can probably find out what the exact waterline is supposed to be for you.

I'm a bit concerned as to how your water level go so high. Do you have an automatic water feeder and do you have an internal coil in the boiler that provides hot water for the sinks and showers?  If you aren't sure, post some pictures of your boiler. Take them of different sides of your boiler and back a ways so we are able to trace the boiler piping. We can zoom in if we need to see more detail.

- Rod

BobC

Boiler full

Someplace low down on the boiler there should be a drain valve, attach a short hose and drain water off to a bucket till the water level looks right. Make sure the boiler is off and not under pressure, I usually use an old washing machine hose.



Once the level is right you have to determine how all that water got in there. is it possible the water feed valve didn't get turned off all the way? If there is an automatic water feed on the boiler it might not have turned off all the way last time it operated.



If the boiler has a hot water coil in it to make domestic hot water it might have developed a small leak.



If you need any more info, just ask.



Bob

VickiS

Model #

Thanks for the replies.  I can't make heads or tails out of the booklets that go with the boiler.  I know the boiler is a Burnham.  The model # is KIN12LNI-LL2.  I don't know if it has an internal coil in it or not.



I've attached a few pictures...sorry for the quality, I was having trouble getting clear pics as it's pretty dark in the basement.  Is the one the drain valve you are talking about?  It's the only valve I see on the boiler.  It's attached to a water line and I'm assuming that box in the other pic is an automatic water feeder?  How do I drain the boiler without having the autofeeder kick in (assuming I'm right on what that is)?  The last pic is the psi that hte boiler is showing, which is just under 2psi.  Is that what is meant by making sure the boiler isn't under pressure before draining?  Should it be 0 or is that reading okay to drain. 



So when I start draining, the water in the site glass will go down?  and I drain until it gets down to the proper level on the site glass?



Could the issue with the flooded boiler have to do with the temp being set so high that one day...like really high, in the 90's, have caused a lot of excess water to have gotten into the system?



Thanks!



Vicki

VickiS

More pictures

I've uploaded some more pics of our system in case it helps you all.  The pipes on the floor are some kind of return pipe, correct?  I know that type of system has a name but it is escaping at the moment.



I found 3 vents as I looked around...one in the same room as the boiler, the tall was at the very front of the house (where we are having trouble getting heat into the radiators but it appears to be at the end of the line.  There are about 6 radiators prior to this vent that are very slow to heat or don't heat at all...3 on the 1st floor and 3 on the second).  The other vent is in the room next to the boiler and it again looks like it's at the end of the line.  I'm wondering if there is a 4th vent at the back of the house but I can't see that area very well since it's more enclosed.  We are not having any trouble with those radiators though.

BobC

I think I found it

The valve to the left of the yellow bucket with the black knob on it is the boiler drain, it may have hose threads on it. The large device above the bucket is the low water cutoff. Someplace along that 1/2" copper pipe to the left of the gauge glass there should be a manual fill valve make sure it is off tight so it''s not trickling water into the boiler and cause it to overfill. I do not see an autofeeder but I may have overlooked it.



Your main vents look like they have had it, if they are not working the steam will not distribute evenly through the house and your fuel costs will be very high. That low return behind the boiler looks suspect if it is partially clogged you could have delayed condensate return which can cause overfilling if water is added to the boiler because someone thinks it needs water - when the water does eventually find it's way back the boiler can get overfilled. An overfilled boiler can make some pretty ugly noises and will not heat at all well.



Bob

VickiS

Re: Found it

Thanks Bob!

There are hose threads where that black knob is.  It looks like you could screw a garden hose onto it.  I've attached two more pics.  Is the one the manual shutoff for the water?  And is the other the auto feeder?  When looking at the unit from the side where the drain is...going up the 1/2 inch water pipe, it then turns right and that black box sits kind of in line with the low water cutoff only higher...then you keep going and the pipe then turn upward and that's where that valve sits.



I need to pull the lever down to close the valve, then drain some of the water out and I will know that I've drained enough when the site glass is no longer full?



It's weird though, because that lever, although the wording is upside down says Open and shows an arrow pointing down, as if you are to pull the lever down to open the line.  So is it closed right now?  If so, how does the system refill itself because we havent' been adding any water to it?



As you can tell, I'm quite confused.  Thanks so much for being patient with me.



Thanks!



Vicki

crash2009

Water Feeder

 shut-off valve.  Yea, thats it.  Turn counter clockwise to stop water from being added.  When that lever is in the up position, like it is in your picture, the water is turned on.  If the water feeder senses that the boiler needs water, the water feeder opens itself and allows water into the boiler.

BobC

should do it

That valve with the lever should be the manual shutoff. If that box is the autofeeder is that a red button you can push to actuate the water feeder or is it just a light indicating it is running?



If you shut that valve with the lever you should then be able to use the drain to lower the water in the boiler so it is between half and three quarters up the sight glass.



You should kill the switch on the boiler so it doesn't start while your working on it,  but I would try lowering the water level so it disappears from the glass and see if that water feeder kicks in when you turn the boiler power back on and open the manual water feed. It should stop feeding water when the water gets to the right level.



 That will confirm the water auto feeder is working but will tell you if you have a slow leak inside it. You will have to monitor the water level in the sight glass to see if it seems to be creeping up over time. If it does creep up you will have to keep the manual feed valve off till the auto feeder gets fixed.



Auto waterfeeders sometimes don't close completely and let water trickle by them when they should be off. That boiler looks like it needs some TLC to get back into shape, it probably was not very well maintained in the past so you will have some catch up to go through this winter. make sure you flush that low water cutoff a few times a month to keep it clean.



Bob

Rod

Water Level

Hi Vicki- I see Bob is way ahead of me and has already mentioned the drain valve. and the Automatic Water Fill Shut OFF Valve (See attached pictures)

Your boiler is an Burnham Independence Model IN12. You must have a very large home as that is a big boiler.

Measured vertically from the bottom of the boiler (where it meets the floor it is sitting on) to the designed water level should be 28 5/8 inches. You might want to check this and if there isn't a mark already there, make a mark on the sight glass with a magic marker . This is where the water level should be when the burner is turned off and the boiler is cold



What you should do is drain the water down to this level and then you can turn on the thermostat so the boiler’s burner starts. The boiler's water line will drop down as the boiler makes steam. The LWCO (Low Water Cut Off) is a safety device which stops the burner if the water in the boiler gets too low.



I would monitor the water level for a while and if it rises higher than the design water line that would indicate you probably have a problem with the automatic water feeder. If this happens use the shut off valve near the waterfeeder to turn off the water and that should stop the flooding.

 I don’t see any sign of an internal coil though we don’t have complete pictures of the boiler and piping.

Any way let's start by lowering the water level and getting the heat back on.



I would highly recommend you get a book from the Shop section of this website. It's call "We Got Steam Heat!"

http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Steam-Heating-Books/25/61/We-Got-Steam-Heat-A-Homeowners-Guide-to-Peaceful-Coexistence

It's written for the homeowner who is new to steam heating and explains what things are and what they do. It's easy humorous reading and in an evening or two your knowledge of steam heating will be light years ahead!

- Rod

VickiS

Re: Water Level

Thank you guys so much!  Your advice has been awesome and I really appreciate you taking the time to walk me through this process so slowly so that I can understand it.



There is a mark on the site glass and I will double it to be sure that it lines up with the measurement given.  And yes, we do have a large house...over 4500 square feet although the top level is being remodeled so all radiators in that portion of the

house are closed at this point but plan on having them back in operation by the end of the year. 



I will work on getting the level down and will let you guys know how that goes.  and I am ordering the book today. 



The red button on the autofeeder is a button, not a light.  My understanding was that it can be pushed to release more water into the system if it doesn't automatically do it.



The mocked up pictures with labels are great.  Thank you so much for doing that!  Probably a stupid questions but can you explain what the difference is between draining the boiler via the boiler valve vs the low water drain hinge?  Both drain water from the boiler, right?  We have been draining about a bucket full of water from the low water drain to clean it out...amazing how dirty it gets after once cycle of heat running.



Thanks so much!



Vicki

crash2009

I think

 I just spotted a small leak.  You see where the sight glass is a turquoise color, at the bottom.  When you decide to get some maintenance done, ask them to have a close look at the bottom of the sight glass. When mine was looking like that I didn't find out until the boiler had cooled off.  These types of leaks don't show when the boiler is hot because, any drips that might be coming out are evaporated by the heat.  If you look close you might see a crusty white film where the glass meets the metal.

I circled a couple other places that might be dripping as well. 

VickiS

No water draining

Help please.  I tried draining the water tonight but nothing comes out.  I turned the water lever so that it closed the water pipe, attached the hose and then turned the knob on the drain valve to open it and nothing comes out.  Was there something else that I needed to do?  The lever and the knob I turned on the ones identified in the attached pictures.



Thanks for any thoughts you have.



Vicki

VickiS

Re: Leaks

Thank you!  We will keep these in mind and will get them checked out.



Vicki

crash2009

A lot of time

 when the valve hasn't been open in awhile, it gets stuck shut.  It will be full of boiler crud.  Usually you have to stick a coathanger in there to get it started.  Then put the hose back on to drain it.  Also you always want to be wearing leather gloves for burn prevention, in case the water comes out hot.  It will be very dirty also, put an old pan under to catch the crud.



When you get done draining, probably what's going to happen, is that the drain valve won't shut off all the way.  Use one of these brass (not plastic) drain caps.  If you can't get a drain cap tonight, and it is still dripping, just put the hose back on, and tie the hose end to the ceiling until you can get a cap.

Rod

Drain Excess Water from the Boiler

Hi Vicki- It sounds as though the drain tap is plugged. This happens quite often if regular maintenance hasn't been done. At this point make sure the drain tap is closed and use the LWCO valve ( the yellow handle) to drain off the excess boiler water. The object now is to first get the boiler water down to the proper water level. I know this must all seem rather daunting at first but things quickly fall into place as you learn more and get comfortable with your system.

- Rod

crash2009

Rod's plan

is probably a better idea.  Leave that messy job for your boiler maintenance guy.

VickiS

Re: Draining

Thank you both for your quick replies!



LOL Rod.  I thinking daunting is quite the understatement right at the moment but I'm just going to take things one step at a time and I know you guys will help me through things.



and LOL Crash at your second response.  Have any recommendations for a reliable maintenance in the Frostburg, MD area?    I haven't a clue how to find one.



I will let you guys know how things work out with the draining and then I'll be back with more questions because I still have to get the radiators pitched...and I'm pretty sure some of the vents are bad, or at least something is not right with them, on some of the radiators but my brain can't handle everything all at one time...so I will tackle the draining for now. 



Thanks again!

Vicki

crash2009

How far

from Baltimore are you?  You might convince Steamhead to come over.  Can we see a picture of one of your radiators?

VickiS

Re: How far

We are about 2 hrs west of Baltimore.



I will take a few pics of some of our radiators tomorrow.  It will be somewhat challenging as they are all covered by radiator covers.  We have a number of different types and sizes throughout the house...probably about 23 radiators or so in total but most are the same size/style. 



I have a general question about radiator covers.  Most of ours, when you open the top, have a removable pan the size of the length of the radiator inside.  What is the purpose of that pan?  And I just noticed that you can prop the lid of the cover open by turning a lever so that the lid will sit propped at an angle.  Is that something we should be doing or should the lid be completely closed?  The lid is completely solid on the covers but the fronts have openings to let the heat out.  These questions will probably be easier to answer once you see the pics.



Thanks.



Vicki

Rod

Pans

Hi Vicki-  If the pans are on top of the radiator, they are most probably used (with water to increase the humidity in the house during the winter.  It would be great if you can get Frank "Steamhead" to come out and look at you system. There are few people that know more about these old systems than he does.

- Rod

VickiS

Boiler level down

I was able to get the level in the boiler down so that I can actually see the water level in the site glass now.    Should the level still be lower than what I brought it down too?  It's still above the min line that I marked on the glass...that's the faint blank line you can see underneath the water level.  Thanks!



Vicki

VickiS

Radiator pics

Here are a few of the different types of radiators that we have in the house.  Most of our radiators look like the 3rd radiator picture.  That one isn't actually hooked up at the moment but we have many that are that same type in varying lengths...some really long, some short.  The 5th picture is showing one inside a radiator cover which is the way the majority of the radiators are in the house.



We have at least two radiators that hiss at the vent and another radiator doesn't heat at all now although it did a couple of weeks ago.



Thanks!



Vicki 

Rod

Boiler Water Level

Hi Vicki- There isn't a maximum /minimum  mark . Th boiler water, when cold, should be at the design water level which in the case of your boiler is 28 5/8 inches vertical from the base (that's where the bottom of the boiler touches the floor.it's mounted on)  Measure up the sight glass and make a mark using a felt pen/magic marker. Then drain the boiler water down to that line..

Do you have the automatic water fill shut off valve turned off at this time?

- Rod

VickiS

Re: Boiler water level

ok, so I still have the level a little high.  I'll drain it down some more.  Yes I had the auto water shutoff valve turned off when I was doing this. 



Another question, the low water cut off valve is leaking a little even though have the lever turned as tight as I can get it.  Is there an easy way to stop this?  Thanks!



Vicki

crash2009

Nice radiators.

Nice radiators.  I especially like one in the 4th picture, that one has likely, has seen at least 100 birthday parties.  I am sure Steamhead knows them all by name.  Here is his contact page.  http://www.heatinghelp.com/professional/79/All-Steamed-Up-Inc  You are so fortunate to be within a couple hours of his office. 

Rod

LWCO Leak

As to the leak from the LWCO blow off valve -  There are spare parts available for this unit. However it is recommended by the manufacturer (M&M) that you replace the whole complete unit every 10 years. Rather than put the parts into an old unit it maybe better to just go ahead and replace the whole unit. As there was some question about your water sight glass it may be time to replace that also especially since their piping is interrelated it would save labor to do them both at the same time.



Your boiler's situation is fairly typical in that the maintenance doesn't seem to have been kept up all that well. This is one of the advantages (disadvantages?) of steam systems is that they are very robust which is why they are still around and will still operate even when neglected.



  I would put together a list of things you need to have done, like the plugged boiler drain you discovered earlier and have a pro come out and fix them all for you. As you get more comfortable with the system you can do a lot of the maintenance yourself though I would leave safety equipment like the LWCO and the burner and burner controls to a pro.





Once you get the boiler water to the correct level you should be able to start the burner and see how things are working. You didn't tell us how serious the LWCO valve was leaking. If it is a major leak then starting the burner will have to wait until it is fixed. However if it is just the occasional drip it will stillneed to be fixed but it's probably ok to operate the boiler in the mean time.

- Rod

Rod

Tekmar 279 Boiler Control / Thermostat

Hi Vicki -

  Another post on the Wall reminded me to mention this to you. Since you have a large steam system (large home)  it maybe beneficial to you to install a better thermostat that is  designed for larger homes/ buildings. It's made by Tekmar and is their Model 279. It's not something you need right now but something you might want to consider in the future.

Several people on the Wall use this model. Here are some links to info on it.

http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/products/hvac-systems/279.html

http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/images/_literature/279_d_06.pdf

- Rod