Munchkin Boiler Problem

Jeff_101

I currently moved from my old house which used steam heat (perfected via this website and Dan's books) to a house built in 1930 that originally had gravity hot water with HUGE supply pipes.

The house was fitted with a munchkin about 5 years ago.  This fall, I am having trouble with the munchkin reaching a water temp that can warm the house.  In fact, the digita readout continually gives 140 degrees and it is set at 200 with a diff at 20 degrees.  Even the temp gauage installed on the output side of the water pipe coming from the boiler reads about 145.  The radiators do not get really hot but a little more than "lightly warm"...and the house takes FOREVER to go from about 67 degrees to 70 when it is only 40 degrees outside.  When I say forever, I mean almost an hour and a half!

I am currently renting this house and moved in at the tail end of last winter, so I did not notice the problem then. I have told my landlord who does not seems overly concerned, but he knows NOTHING about heating a house!  He is calling in a "friend" who is a plumber, but I wanted to have some ground to stand on!  Help!

RobG

Munchkin Problem

There are many factors that could be in play here, However, I wonder if this might be it.

You moved from a house with steam heat to a house with  hot water heat. You are going to have a radical change in how you achieve comfort. Your steam radiators got super hot within a short time. With forced hot water it is going to take significantly longer for your radiators to heat, especially in a gravity conversion where there is a large volume of water to heat in the piping alone, much less the radiators. As well, the water radiators will never get as hot as the steam rads you are used to. To add to this, your system should operate on an outdoor air reset. This means that at 40 degrees outdoor temp, the boiler may be set up to provide 140degree water to heat the house, automatically raising and lowering the water temp based on the outside air temp. In essence, your boiler might be working just fine. I suggest downloading the boiler I&O manual and confirming how the boiler is set up. You can adjust the reset curves to suit your comfort level. I'm not saying that there isn't a problem, just that this type of system may take some getting used to.

Rob

Jeff_101

outdoor reset

Rob,

Thanks for such a great, easy-to-read response!  I know the steam rads are much hotter than the water ones. What would an outdoor temp look like on a munchkin...?  I probably have one and don'rt even know it!  Yesterday, it was not very cold out...just that the house was raw! 

Seing the old gravity piping did make me realize what a huge volume of water that little munchkin needed to heat.  Problem sometimes is that we have a front porch that was converted to our family room and has TERRIBLE baseboard heat...and we all know how much different they heat versus the old cast iron ones.

Aaron_in_Maine

Showtime

I treat outdoor reset like the Showtime rotisserie they sell on tv. Just set it and forget it. Let the boiler do the thinking. If you turn the thermostat up and down it takes forever for the boiler running lower temps to catch up.

Jeff_101

What does it look like

Could someone tell me what the outdoor temp/reset looks like? I have a small beige looking object attached to the north side of my house...about 3 inches long, one inch wide and 1 inch deep. Assuming it must work in conjunction with the indoor thermostat?

28W

That sounds like an ODR to me

I'm a homeowner, not a pro.  The object you describe certainly sounds like an outdoor reset to me, especially since it is on the north side of the house.  The ODR is telling the boiler how cold it is outside, so that when the indoor thermostat calls for heat, the boiler can modulate its heat output (and therefore the temperature of the water going to the radiators).  As a new owner of a modulating boiler, I've learned (from the folks on this forum) that it is best to set the indoor thermometer to comfortable temperature, and then leave it alone.  Don't turn it down at night, because it will take a long time for house to warm up again in the morning.

Aaron_in_Maine

Sounds like it

That sounds like a outdoor reset. There should be a thermostat wire going from that to the boiler. If so set it and forget it and the boiler will do the saving for you.

Paul48

Manual

As Rob suggested, if you download the I&O manual, you can learn if there's an outdoor reset attached to the boiler. You can also see what the boiler is set to, and adjust it to suit you.

Jeff_101

YEP

There is a thermostat wire attached to it and to the boiler control where the indoor thermostat is attached.  I currently have a Honeywell 7 day programmable...should I simply set it at 72 and HOLD and let the outdoor reset/therm do its work?  It does take a long time in the morning for the house to get warm regardless of outdoor temp!  Although...72 at night is pretty warm!

Thanks...in just a few short hours, I have learned a LOT more than I knew this morning!

SWEI

Thermostats and ODR

In a system with outdoor reset, the thermostat should be set a few degrees higher than the desired indoor temperature.  Adjust the ODR curve (usually in the boiler controller) and balance flow until you get the desired indoor temp behavior across a range of outdoor temps.  This can take quite a few weeks (sometimes more than one heating season) to dial in, but it is worth your time.  The thermostat should be set such that it calls for heat almost all of the time, but turns off the boiler when/if the space gets heat from some other source (solar gain, wood stove, cooking, etc.)

Aaron_in_Maine

Two

Two degrees might be ok for a night set back. But have it come back up earlier then you think so your comfortable when you get up. I played with mine and found more than four degrees took all day to recover back to set point.

Jean-David Beyer

ODR and setback.

I do not do any setback on the zone heated by an on-grade radiant slab. Takes about 24 hours to recover from any useful setback and restabilize operation. It also takes about 12 hours to make any noticeable reduction in room temperature.



I have a zone heated by baseboard, but the reset curve is already so tight that to recover from 2 degree setback takes 4 hours or sometimes more.



If I do no reset, the system holds 69F + | - 1F all the time, and the circulator for each zone runs many hours at a time, as much as 18 hours straight for the radiant slab zone. (Less true when it is very warm out, but cold enough to require a little heat: boiler will not modulate down far enough.)



My boiler does have a feature that if the system does not satisfy a call for heat after a certain (programmable) amount of time, it will adjust the water temperature up 10F so as to recover faster. The feature does work, but if I set it to boost after, say, 2 hours, then it will not let the system run all day at just barely enough heat to maintain temperature. After the time is up, it boosts unnecessarily and screws up my adjustments. So I turned off the boost feature and just do no setbacks at all.



I think that with properly adjusted reset curves, setback is practically useless.

RobG

Home heating

A couple other things you might be able to do.

1. Could you make your cold family room (baseboard loop) into a separate zone, or add more baseboard or high output baseboard to the room to balance the rooms heat-loss to the rest of the house?

2. I agree, trying to sleep in a 72 degree bedroom would be uncomfortable. You could add TRV's (thermostatic radiator valves) to the bedroom radiators to control the room temps independently of the thermostat.

Since it's a rental, your in the hands of the landlord or your own pocketbook. Good luck

Rob

readytoshootmymunchkin

big problem staying on

I have had this boiler for over 10 yrs. For the whole time I have been dealing with F09 codes until I aam dreaming about them. We clean and We clean the igniter over and over again sometimes it works and sometimes it does not. The boiler is on propane. I have my my own idea that this little gem does not play well with propane. I have had everybody and there brothers out changing this or that. moving this or that. However all that is well and good F09 still pops up. It gets cool in Iowa and not to meanchin how my wife gets when she cant take a hot shower. HELP PLEASE

Steve Whitbeck

Munchkin

When is the last time it was cleaned. On propane boilers using a gianoni  (spelling) heat exchanger they need to be cleaned yearly.

constant F09 codes means the boiler either didn't fire or didn't prove ignition.

There are many things that can cause the F09 code. Dirty flame rod, plugged drain, burner gasket gone, improper combustion settings and recirculation of exhaust gasses.

IF all of these are not a problem then changing to the newer 926 control kit will solve MOST of your F09 problems.

Ironman

Combustion Analysis?

Was this boiler ever setup with a digital combustion analyzer by a technician that is properly trained in the use of it?

readytoshootmymunchkin

ugh

It may need a good cleaning. Flame rod is what we have cleaned everytime in the last ten years to try to get this hunk of junk to work. I will have the gasket checked and the drain. I can also have combustion setting checked as well. I even had some techs out and I am sure the piping for the gasses were changed at that time. I will also check on the newer control kit. Thank You for your input if this works what a live saver

Cool In Iowa

readytoshootmymunchkin

ugh

Good question I willbe checking to find out. Everyone tells me what a great boiler this is. Boy do I have some words for this hunk of junk.

Cool In Iowa

Ironman

Combustion Analysis

The combustion analysis needs to be done AFTER the boiler is thoroughly cleaned. This envolves more than just cleaning the flame rod and vacuuming out the heat exchanger. A proper cleaning will include using a credit card to remove ALL the debris between the coils of the HX and probably scrubbing it with a solution of CLR.



I can't stress enough the importance of the tech being properly trained to use the combustion analyzer. You need to ask them this. Having the tool is not enough; he needs to know how to use it. If I had the money, I could own an MRI, but I'd be clueless about the images when I looked at them because I haven't been trained to properly interpret them. Make them give a printout from the analyzer of the results and post them here. Hint: we don't care what the efficiency number is; it means nothing in properly setting up the burner.

readytoshootmymunchkin

Ugh

Ok just got off with our guy that does all the work on this piece over the years. All the above has been done. He will check out all gaskets however. He does have a question on the newer 926 control kit. Is there more info on this and what it is ???

readytoshootmymunchkin

UGH

Maybe I need to look into someone else where would I find the proper fit to fill the tech job (where on line for here in Iowa) is there a website??

readytoshootmymunchkin

Ugh

UghOk just got off with our guy that does all the work on this piece over the years. All the above has been done. He will check out all gaskets however. He does have a question on the newer 926 control kit. Is there more info on this and what it is ??? Reply Edit

icesailor

Munchkin's:

There's nothing wrong with Munchkins. Most problems trace back to tech's that don't know what they are doing and just do by rote.

All the ones I have worked on or installed were on LP Gas.

Ask that "tech" if he has ever checked the "Swirl Plate". If he doesn't know what it is or has never checked it, you need another tech that knows what it is. I know guys that service them and have for years. They love them. I've never heard of anyone going for years with a F-09 fault code that wasn't resolved.

Does it ever rumble when starting or when it is running?

One problem with early condensing gas boilers is that everyone was led to believe that you would save money on maintenance because you don't have to clean and service them like a oil burner. They need more annual servicing that a oil burner.

You can still buy them from HTP. When they run out of their supply of Gianonni Heat Exchangers, that will be the end. Its not a POS to those that have successfully worked on them.

Just because you own and use a digital combustion analyzer doesn't mean you know HOW to use and interpret the results. He should have left you copies of the readouts so you even knew what he did.

Post results if you get them.

readytoshootmymunchkin

UGH

Good to Know Thank You It is just I have faught this for over ten years it is very unsettling. Do You know of any techs close to Ames Iowa. and do You know anything about this 926 control they are talking

readytoshootmymunchkin

UGH

No it does not rumble

RobG

Ugh

Could you post some pictures of the boiler, near boiler piping and the intake / exhaust piping (including the terminations on the outside) ? Most problems are due to installers not following the installation instructions. Modulating / condensing boilers have to be piped in a specific way to operate correctly, especially boilers with your style of heat exchanger. Pictures would help greatly, the more detailed the better. Though I have seen boilers that were lemons, they are very rare.





Rob

readytoshootmymunchkin

Ugh

Yes I will post pics tomorrow

Slimpickins

Loose burner

On the older Munchies of course you have to clean the heat exchanger. The recurring F09 is probably the burner screws are loose.The rectification signal carries through the tightly grounded burner. You will need a big phillips screwdriver and I'm not sure of the tip size to get it retightened without stripping the screw heads.. You will also need a new burner gasket, a Scotchbrite pad or sandpaper.Remover the burner and scrap off the bottom of the burner flange and where it mounts to the door. Clean the screws really good especially under the head where it mates with the burner flange and reassemble and that should take care of your F09