Boiler Piping corroded-1929 Apartment building

Steve_Hoov

We are looking to purchase a 14 unit 3 story brick apartment building built in 1929. It has a roughly 25 year old Weil McLain boiler (910,000 BTU), the issue is the near boiler piping that is corroded and has been patched several times. It looks as if it should be replaced. One contractor indicated that if we fix that portion that it is very possible that with increased pressure one the leaks are eliminated that it will force new leaks up in the walls and floors of the building. I am told at one time each apartment could regulate their heat, but appears that this is not the case now. Anyone have any thoughts?

Ironman

It looks Like...

Freddie the Fix It Man has been there.



I don't think I've ever seen someone put a Fernco on a steam line. Looks like something a tight-wad landlord would do. After all, why pay all that money to a pro?



You should get those lines replaced right away; and send that guy who advised you not to packing. Also, insulate the bare lines.



There should not be more than 2psi in the system. What is the pressuretrol set at?

JStar

Fernco

Looks like every apartment building in NJ.



Agreed. Fix those leaks! Don't trust a lazy contractor.

nicholas bonham-carter

leaky lines

the radiator runouts look small enough to indicate a vapor system, which could run on 3 ounces or less, so when you fix the lines, put on a vaporstat, and a low pressure gauge [0-3 psi-gaugestore.com], to keep the pressure low. make sure the venting is adequate as well.--nbc

Steamhead

Agreed

also, are there any underground return lines? If so, I bet these are leaking, which causes a lot of make-up water to feed into the system, which starts to corrode other system components.



I see what looks like an old thermostatic valve on that garage ceiling radiator.



Where are you located?  

Paul48

Price

Your offer should reflect the fact that the building needs a new boiler, re-pipe and repairs to the existing system. After looking at that mess, what other nightmares are you going to inherit. What does the electrical look like....knob and tube, or arsenic wire?

icesailor

Band-Aid Man:

And there's no possibility that one could have concealed leaks in the asbestos covered pipes in ceilings and walls.

Fernco's are a bad choice for repairs of any kind. They will over time between the clamps through the rubber. The stainless steel shell types work better, It takes longer before they leak. If the leak is in the pipe next to the fitting, you can spooge RTV around the pipe and fitting and stop the leak for a while. A Band-Aid on an infection is always a successful cure. For others. I'm not others. Its never worked for me.

Just looking at that makes the back of my neck hot. I'm already wishing the place Health, Happiness and Loooooooong Distance.

nicholas bonham-carter

Neglected piping

If you are successful in getting this building, then check back here, as it doesn't seem obvious that contractor is familiar with steam. It is possible that this system has been burning 30% to 50% more gas than needed.

The system will run better, and more quietly on just a few ounces of pressure.

If the boiler needs to be replaced, then a heat survey should be done to determine the correct size to match the piping.

A little maintenance would have extended the life of the pipes The horizontals seem to suffer the most, especially when they run through damp areas, .--NBC

Steve_Hoov

Slight Clarification

When the contractor said after we 'fix it', fix it meant replacing those pipes, not more band aids. Plus, the asbestos (which would be removed), has been there since new so its not really covering up any leaks as far as we can tell. Regardless, we would replace all of the piping anyway. Also, the wiring has been updated, the building itself is otherwise in pretty good shape, seemingly over built by probably 20% since it was 1929. Also, Steamhead, there are no underground pipe runs and we are located in SE Michigan (Jackson, about an hour west of Detroit). So as far as I can tell, as long as we have the pressure right, nobody really thinks there would be more problems up in the building if we cure these horizontal pipes?

Steve_Hoov

this boiler

Also, everyone who has looked at it so far has agreed that the boiler itself seems fine, manufactured and installed in the late 80's

Paul48

25

At about 25 years, and given the visible repairs to the system, I'd plan on replacing the boiler also.Can you post some pictures of the boiler, and near-boiler piping?

Steve_Hoov

boiler

Hi Paul. See the pic in my last post (not great). I will be there later today and can take better pictures with my SLR and post them. Thanks for the feedback.

clammy

pipe corriosion /insulation

Steve i have ran into alot of corroded steam main and from my experences it usually is caused by uninsulated steam mains in unheated areas usually the leaks start at the fitting being the pipes wall is thinner due to it being threaded and where there is sages in the piping .The other reason is with out the pipe insulation you end up with more condensate in your mains which will over time grove the bottom of your main because of the extra condensate it also can and will effect raditors at the end of the main the worse  due to the steam constantly condensing and less btu s getting on that wet ride then in comparision to dry steam which more btus can fit on for the ride .Insulation on steam mains and near boiler piping can be the killer of steam system and can make the difference in indoor comfort and in fuel comsumpition .In the past i have balanced and lower fuel comsumpition on quite a few older steam systems just by insulating the steam mains and adding main vents and  in some cases replace cross over traps, on the insulation make sure it has a  1 inch wall thickness mimiun anything under 1 inch wall is a waste of time and money .Best of luck and make sure you get some one in there that is capable and well versed in steam systems also when replacement time comes for the boiler look at some thing with a 2 stage gas valve so that after the mains and pick up are meet the boiler only has to maintain pressure big savings on fuel and cuts short cycling to nil .Peace and good luck clammy PS i have also had issues with wet steam in the main from the boilers near boiler piping not being properly sized or installed correctly some times bigger near boiler piping pays 10 fold

nz

Greetings from Detroit

Hi Steve,



The insulation job on the near boiler piping looks alright, but the near boiler piping configuration looks incorrect...a tee shouldn't be used to bring the risers from the boiler together to feed the main.



I'm not a pro here, but I thought I would point this out - perhaps someone else that does this professionally can confirm.

Steve_Hoov

More pics coming

Thanks everyone. I will be posting more pictures later today after I go back to meet with another boiler contractor to get their opinion of what needs to be done. I appreciate everyone's feedback. The learning curve is steep...

Paul48

Books

There are many great books available on this site. For the few dollars they cost, it can save you thousands. You'll learn how to identify a knucklehead contractor, and that is priceless.

Ironman

Tee Between Risers

Nzeigler,



You are correct in stating that the main(s) should not be tee'd between the the risers. However, It appears there is only one riser on this boiler; the other side is the equalizer line. Notice it's much small in size. At least, that's how it looks in the pic.

Hap_Hazzard

If you get the chance,

try to get some pictures of the other side of the boiler.



The header looks okay except that you'd get drier steam if it was raised up about a foot. It should be at least 18–24" above the water line.

Steve_Hoov

More Boiler Room Pics

Here's about every angle I could come up with.

Paul48

Vapor System

That needs attention from a steam pro. Most contractors, even if familiar with steam, would not be able to tell you what's right or wrong with that system.You could probably count the number of qualified contractors on one hand, and a few hang out here.

Steve_Hoov

Piping Quote

Well, I got my first re-piping quote.... $48,000.... ! Oh, plus $2,000 to abate the asbestos.

Paul48

No $$$

Can't discuss pricing.....It's a site rule.

nicholas bonham-carter

detroit vapor system

can you post the estimate [minus price] here?

without discussing pricing, you can still get quite a bit of information here. your contractor must be quoting the replacement of more sections of pipe than were shown in the first pictures. how many leaky sections are there? and aproximately how many feet of total replacement.you should be able to make that estimate work to your advantage, for a lower purchase price. he is probably thinking of changing all the traps in the building. when the pressure comes down, probably most of them will start working again.

you would do well to see if Steamhead, [or another pro], could come out to look, and make up a detailed list of things to do for a good pipefitter to follow. you may be able to get by temporarily without replacing the pipes, once the pressure is no more than a few ounces.--nbc

Paul48

Anon

Don't show any names on the quote.

Steve_Hoov

Boiler Piping Quote

Here is the quote... (with the pricing X'ed out)

Steve_Hoov

Edited Quote..

I think I blocked out everything....

Paul48

xxx

Take it down, and try again. Just copy the work to be done.

nicholas bonham-carter

Estimate

Yes, use the edit button to remove the contractors name, and any dollar amounts from the PDF.

I would suggest that you have a spray paint can and mark the areas of pipe to be replaced. I wouldn't think you have any supplies larger than 2 in, but welded pipe is for high pressure gas lines, and gives you no adjustment potential as you would have with unions (essential).

You can do the insulation of the pipes yourself.

If the contractor is afraid of breaking pipes further away during the replacements, ( I believe he is), then the tee's of the risers can be strapped in place and immobillised before.

If this is a building with some architectural merit, send some pictures.--NBC

Steve_Hoov

work only

Here ya go... thanks for the feedback. Another contractor has recommended abandoning the boiler all together and putting forced air furnaces in each unit on their existing individually metered gas, already piped in each unit (for cooking gas).