Fixing drafts

ChrisJ

In 2011 we bought our first house and I was surprised at how drafty the old windows were. Not knowing much about windows I simply assumed they were old and it was to be expected.



Recently I started looking at how the sashes were built. Finger jointed at the top and mortise and tenon on the bottom held together with wooden dowels. It occurred to me that a huge amount of work went into making 44 sashes, so why do they work so bad?



I then started learning how my 140+ year old windows were meant to work and went around fixing things. After reglazing three sashes I realized the main reason these windows are so drafty. Whoever replaced trim around a few of them in the past 20 years didn't know what they were doing and installed the side jam for looks rather than how it functions causing a good 1/8" gap which allowed the sashes to literally flop around with the wind.



Of course, these windows are old and even with storm windows cannot compete with quality dual glazed windows today, but I have a feeling our house is going to be a lot less drafty this winter.



I guess sometimes and maybe more often than not, it doesn't cost anything to make your home more energy efficient.

Steamhead

It always costs something

but sometimes a lot less than you'd think.



When The Lovely Naoko and I had our roof replaced in 2006, we spent an extra grand or so to have the roof deck opened so we could add insulation, then replaced when we were done. This wasn't much when taken as a percentage of the entire job, but it sure did make a difference especially in the front bedrooms.



I posted about this on the previous version of The Wall- here's the link, though the postings are scrambled and the pics are gone.



http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/108819/The-Hole-in-my-Bucket-gets-Smaller-Steamhead

BobC

Cutting air infiltration

Those old windows are made a lot better than anything you can by now,you can do a lot with some knowledge and some sweat equity. With good quality storms they can be pretty good. Cutting air infiltration is a major part of improving the energy efficiency of a house.



For the first year I owned this house I  noticed a nasty little draft whenever er got a good northeast breeze in the winter and that happens a lot when your a block away from the ocean. After that first year i did a little sleuthing and found the outside hose bib was in that area and the hole through the sheathing (house is balloon framed) had enlarged over the 90 years to leave a noticeable gap around the 3/4" pipe that fed the valve. I filled that gap with some gap filling foam and then took off the shoe molding between the floor and baseboards on the exterior walls and found a gap of up to 1/8" there. I filled that gap and put the molding back. That next winter the living room was just fine and all it cost me was a little foam, some rope caulk, and a little time.



Finding and fixing low hanging fruit like that can increase your comfort and lower the fuel bill for very little cash.



Bob

Jean-David Beyer

Those old windows are made a lot better

It may depend on how old.



My house was built in 1950 and had aluminum windows that slide up and down. The aluminum was stronger than they used to make tooth-paste tubes, but not much.  The sides of the frames had springs that pressed against the 2x4s in the frame of the house, and against the aluminum. The friction kept the windows from falling down. The springs pressed around a little steel cup in a hole in the aluminum frame. And a big wood screw went through the whole thing. To loosen the window, you tightened the screw. There were three of these on each side of the window.



Unfortunately, the pressure of the spring caused the steel cup to tear its way through the aluminum frame, so the windows were at maximum tightness and could not be opened or closed.



There were combination screen and storm windows of equally poor materials and workmanship. Drafts.



So I replaced them all with fancy Marvin windows with argon in between, and opti-coated. They are lots better than the 50 year old ones.

ChrisJ

Age

It depends on not only the age but whoever made the windows.

Mine appear to have had a fair amount of effort put into them, but neglect and improper repairs over the years have made them work pretty poorly.



They are 140+ years old and most of them do not, and have never had sash weights. Chances are in the future when we have some money (if ever) we will replace them with Anderson 200 or 400 series windows with the 2 over 2 style grids to match these. But at least for now, I can make them a whole lot nicer to live with. They still are hard to open and usually need a prop stick and the storm windows were certainly not expensive ones and work horrible. A lot of them have broken clips which I'm trying to replace without destroying the storm windows. Out of 24 windows I have 14 that can finally be opened and used. When we first moved in back in April of 2011 I had enough trouble getting 2 usable.

Jamie Hall

Please think twice

about replacing or even reglazing those windows. If they really are that old (and it sounds as though they are) I feel that you might consider restoring them and putting good quality storm windows on.  Your working on tightening up the trim pieces -- especially the stops -- will go a long way to reducing infiltration, and a good storm window will bring up to nearly where you would be with a brand new fancy window -- and you'd still have the original glass and sashes.  And it will be less expensive...



It is really a matter of whether you are thinking of restoration or renovation on your house; the two are very very different procedures.

ChrisJ

reglazing

I'm glad to see others on the wall are also not into just ripping stuff out because its old. and needs work.



I shouldn't have said I am reglazing the windows. I'm redoing the glazing compound on them, not reglazing them. I keep forgetting glazing=glass.



A few of the windows have clear modern glass, but many have very wavy cylinder glass.



I have considered keeping the windows but because a lot of the house has been changed over the past years (aluminum siding, new doors) part of me wants new windows. As I said I would insist on windows which are 2 over 2 so the style would be the same. I also really like the look of the Anderson Woodwright series windows, of course they come at a pretty high cost.



I've looked into buying something referred to as "spring bronze" which is a thin bronze weatherstripping used on windows like these. For around $200 I could do all of the windows with it and get them very tight, I'm just not sure how worth it is right now. Good storms seem to go for around $120 each in this size.

Gordy

Old winders

Hey Chris I just spent the whole summer this year stripping all my cottage double hungs to bare wood, glaze compound as needed, and, I'm now painting with sherwin Williams emerald.



The top, and bottom sashes now both operate. Glaze compound is an art, and I became good at it. Sense of pride to get something old to like new operating condition. Not many new windows out there that last 60-10o plus years.



Gordy

Gordy

New windows

While new windows would be nice it depends on how many is needed to roi.



In my case to replace the 27 windows in my 50's house would cost 40,000 dollars plus that's with me doing the work. With nothing wrong with the present windows I hardly think its worth the money to replace. The energy savings is mute.

Jean-David Beyer

Not many new windows out there that last 60-10o plus years.

The Quaker meetinghouse I attend is almost 200 years old. It has (suffers from?) an historical designation so when our windows needed to be replaced, we could not do it. Forget Marvin or Anderson windows even if we could afford them: not allowed.



The panes were falling out of the windows and the wood was so old it would not hold glazier's points. We found a contractor who did only historical restoration work. The choice was to replace the existing windows with new, that would involve his making tools for the right profile to mill the wood to the proper shape and size. Also to find wood that would last another 200 years. He chose, instead, to clean up the existing wood, impregnate it with an epoxy compound, and replace the remaining hardware-store glass with old glass to match the original. A lot of the panes were still the old original wavy glass. I do not know if it was blown or what. None of the windows are standard size, so any replacement windows would have had to be custom made, and some are very large. He made us plexiglass storm windows too. They are not authentic, but he made them so you did not see them unless you got up close to look. Good enough for the historical commission. The building has two gas-fired forced hot air furnaces of 125,000 BTU/hour. These are not quite enough and in cold windy weather, we cannot get the building over 65F, and old folks do not like that. But as the windows are replaced, the comfort increases. He is also fixing all the doors so that they leak a lot less now. The building originally had three pot-bellied coal stoves that could not possibly have heated very well.

Jean-David Beyer

While new windows would be nice it depends on how many is needed to roi.

In my case, it was 12 windows. I forget what the windows themselves cost, but installed, it was $12,000. In addition to the cost of the windows, was the cost of all the trim around them, and stuffing additional insulation around them, labor, and profit. At the same time, I had to have my old roof torn off, some non-code plywood (3/8") supplemented, and reroofed. About $8000. Owning a house is expensive. Fortunately I did not have to do that every year.



Then remodeled my kitchen. That cost about triple what the original owner paid for the house and land ($10,000). Then the W-M Ultra-3 boiler to replace the original GE oil-fired boiler. And so it goes.

ChrisJ

Quality storms

If we do decide to just clean these up and then replace all of the storms, is there any specific brand of storm window which is really solid? I'm talking like the early triple track storms which had more solid thick frames and metal sliders.

ChrisJ

glazing compound

Here is a picture of the first sash I worked on. Since then I have found much smaller glazing points which work better with the narrow spaces on my sashes. I have also learned to lightly use my finger to rub out imperfections in the compound due imperfections in the wood.



The sash was stripped with a heatgun and then primed with oil based primer. Finished off with a semi-gloss topcoat which I originally painted kind of sloppy because I was told I could simply scrape paint off of the glass. I learned the hard way this is not easily done next to soft glazing compound. From now on I always use tape on the glass and leave a very thin area of exposed glass to allow the paint to seal to it. Gives me sealed compound as well as a nice straight line.

Gordy

glazing compound

Chris,



 What kind of glazing compund are you using? There are differences. Dap33 compared to Sherwin Williams 66 compund is night, and day. You should also let the compund sit about a week before painting so it can stiffen up. The dap 33 is not as cohesive as the SW 66. The 66 I find esier to work with, but stays pliable longer than the 33 if you are in a hurry to paint.



 As far as scraping excess paint from glass. Score the perimeter with a razor blade before you scrap.



Either way is tedeous taping verses scraping. I find taping more so, but then I have multi pane cottage style Double Hungs.

ChrisJ

compound

I'm using Dap 33. I waited about 2 weeks before priming and painting over the compound, was still soft. It was done in my basement which has been 79F and 50-52%RH due to the dehumidifier.



I'm told many guys prefer stuff made by Sarco but I haven't tried anything other than the Dap 33 yet.

BobC

Storm Windows

In Eastern Mass Stormtite makes very good storms, Peter Hotten (Boston Globe's Handyman on call) swears by them. They don't give them away but they are head and shoulders above what the big box stores sell.



Bob

ChrisJ

homer \ lowes

Thats good info Bob as we were considering Lowes before.

Gordy

Wood storms

There are also plenty of vendors online that make original wood storms and screens.