what would you do

clammy

Yesterday took the long ride to re examine a bad install from top to bottom.After doing a heat lose and finding the boiler undersized by about 55mbtu what would be your path in choices,add another boiler and have to update the controls on the old one to cascade them and then have to do all the other work that comes with installing another boiler or remove the undersized one and install the properly sized boiler for the job.Take into consideration that the original boiler is 3 years old and after 3 repipes is still way off the mark of the manafactures i &o instructions and has not been serviced nor till i got there went through it's paces with a CA and the system has gycol and has never been tested or checked .The original boiler is a weil ultra series 2 controller 105 mbtu i have yet to check to see if the series 2 can be cascased with a series 3 or if i have to change out the series 3 control .Personally my partner and i are at different ends of the thought train .I myself would like to start afresh and remove the ultra throw in a prestige solo 175 and be done with it .The HO is great but he is very unsure and would like to try to use the ultra over and add another and so would my partner but i see it as the room is tight and adding another boiler would take more room ,venting would be tough n tight ,have to re do a good deal of gas pipe re sizing and running back to the regulator.The rest of the job is just as tough every heating guy that work on this job sucked including the last guy who re did the radiant and install extruded plates but offset the plates and installed them against the floor joists sides of the bays and lft 1 to 2 ft spaces with out plates issues there for sure .This guy has already spent close to 60 grand but this is what you get from hill billies 2 times on the radiant and 3 boiler repipes aside from that the house is breath takingly awesome .Every thing in the boiler room is a wash and is going to the scrape pile the workmanship directly states to me that they had no understanding of mod cons nor p/s piping ,pumping or control wiring there are pumps on the supplies and returns with the radiant loops have pumps pumping into the manual mixing valve and pumps on the mix temp out let .For 6 zones they have 2 taco sr505 circ controls thats 10 relays and they are using them all for what reason i do not know .So sorry for the rant but what would you do add or start anew .Thanks peace and good luck clammy

icesailor

What would I do

My opinion may be in the minority. It seems to be that way now.

I don't think that anything you do with the boilers will make a difference. From where I watch, you have covered all the bases that others missed. Adding another boiler will not solve the problem because the heat emitting radiation is so screwed up, it won't heat the house. IMO, most of the time, the house should heat properly with what is there. When the OAT drops, the IAT will keep the house warm to a point. When the OAT/IAT reach equilibrium, it will get colder inside. If the boiler water temperature will drop and the boiler can't maintain temperature. If you turn down a zone, you effectively reduce the load. The temperature in the boiler should go up and the room should get warmer. If that doesn't happen, there is no power on Earth that will make the radiation get bigger and heat the house. So, after installing a new boiler, if you don't get the results you expect, you will be no better than the hackaroos that screwed it up in the first place.

And don't forget to downsize your output because of the Glycol. It doesn't have the heat transferring properties of straight water and the GPM's of the circulator drops too.

Sadly, this fix may involve some scorched air and AC. Use what is there and use the scorched air as a supplement. I did a few staple up jobs in the long ago past and I never found them to be all that effective in these out of the envelope designs. That isn't saying that they don't work. But they were far more prone to a serious problem and an unhappy customer that didn't want to hear that there wasn't a quick fix.

I've been told I don't know what I am talking about so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Zman

2 issues

The first problem is the boiler sizing. Unless the system has microloads and you could really benefit  from the turndown ratio of 2 boilers, I would keep it simple and go to the 175. If you look at the price difference between buying a new 60 or 80 to make up the needed btu's vs the cost of new 175 you are not looking at much money. As you know you will have the extra cost of venting, piping and controlling if you go with 2 boilers. It is probably cheaper to do the 175 and you eliminate the unknowns of an existing boiler.



The second problem is much more sticky. What did the knuckleheads do with the radiation? If they screwed up the easy part in the boiler room (piping per manufactures drawings is not exactly rocket science). How did they do with the finesse side of the job. To diagnose this thing you could;

Check the delta t of the radiant loops tho get an idea of balance.

Try to read the length measurements on the tubing to see how uneven the loops are.

Use an Ir camera to check how effective the radiation is.



Could you add some panel radiators to offset some of the big heat losses and let the existing system keep the floors feeling generally warm? Tekmar controls with indoor temp feedback can help with seriously unbalanced systems.



I would be surprised if the radiation you describe is producing more than 10 BTU/ft, if that.



Icesailor is right on in that you should not give them a shiny new boiler room without evaluating the radiant side of things. He must be having a bad week to be suggesting scorched air over panel radiators. Are the radiant zones able to drag the boiler down or is it piped well enough to be able to tell. I am working on one now that has a boiler that is 25% undersized according the the calcs, but has great radiant. The house is heating just fine.



Ice, you are one of the guys I respect the most on here.Don't let them get you down.



Carl

icesailor

Solutions:

Thanks for the encouragement.

My reason for suggesting the scorched air is because usually when the sticker shock of the repair gets over, they go looking for a cheaper alternative. The existing system must work in some way. You need to find out what really does and doesn't work and address it from there. The "fudge ability" of the system are unlimited. If the repair of the areas that don't work well, is too expensive, and AC is already there, an air handler might be just the ticket to add some "nuts" to the system.

The few staple up jobs I did, the manufacturers were emphatic about how to do the staple up AND how to place the insulation. No matter how many times I spoke to the contractor, the owner, and the insulation contractor, the insulation was installed improperly. No matter how carefully I explained about the required air space between the reflective barrier of the insulation and the underfloor and how the tube has to heat this space, they would jam 12" thick insulation in and leave no air space. You said that some of the staple up had been moved to the side of the joist. That will never work. Turn on the whole mess and see how warm the floors get. Even in the summer, they should get warm. If you don't have an IR camera, a IR thermometer gun will work adequately on a floor.

I guess what I am suggesting is that where I work, zero degrees is what I design for. So, 35 degrees outside would mean that the boiler is twice the size as it needs to be, Therefore, look at it that way. The boiler is way too big for much of the needs. But if the radiation installed isn't enough. it isn't the boilers fault.

I have a friend who does a lot of gas repair on boilers. He finds many of these Ultra's grossly over-sized and he cuts them way back with good results and Weil-McLain has helped. I think the inverse is possible and the 105 Ultra could be goosed up slightly. But from what you describe, the whole system is messed up. The Scorched Air with an air handler or two might be a reasonable alternative.

You have to give people a lot of well thought out alternatives because they will talk to "others" about their problem. If you impress them with lots of alternatives, they will feel comfortable with you and not feel like you are just another hackaroo out to fleece them.

If they have AC, you have insulated duct and an air handler could be the solution. There are lots of opportunities to help out the owner and it be profitable for you.

What I say all the time:

"There's never enough time to do it right. But there's always time for someone like me to do it over."

Paul Pollets

Do-Over

Clammy, don't you live in Alaska? I'd make sure a staple-up will work, knowing the 15 BTU's per SF is about as much as you can expect with proper plate installation. Sometimes supplemental heat is required. I'd put in the larger boiler without trying to stage two of them, and repipe as required. These types of systems usually have many errors. Sort of troubling that the owner couldn't find an expert to do it right the first time.

SWEI

where is this located?

Or more specifically, how peaky is the design heat load?  If it's only a week or two, pairing with a non-condensing boiler might pencil out, but perhaps not.  The PTS175 if direct pumped could simplify the boiler piping to the point where the labor savings offsets any CapEx saved by re-using the existing boiler.



Is there any cooling load at all?  Perhaps a mini-split with multiple indoor units would work?

Steamhead

I believe

Clammy is in Joisey.

clammy

What would you do #2

Aside from all the warnings and opinions i was really just asking where you as a contractor would do  add another mod con with  the existing one to meet the load  and all that comes with adding another boiler or just get one  properly sized boiler and install that either way the system piping has to be redone it is dead in the water with the way it was done .The HO is totally aware that he need supplement heat emitters and most likely it will be panel rads with trv's .I  have told the HO that the slab radiant is total BS without the insulation and it is a huge issue and the radiant on the first floor is suspect and even if installed correctly is way under what is needed and supplement is required .The 2 nd floor is baseboard which does not function when any zone besides itself is calling for heat due to the excellent piping arrangement in the boiler room . The logic behind the boiler room pipin here is beyond the 3 stooges totally over who ever did it head .Aside from the rant about the sysytem and crappy workmanship and no knoweledge i really would like to know which way would you waste your money .peace and good luck clammy  oh  yeah steamheads right joisey

Zman

Stick to the question...

I would put in a new single boiler and sell the old one.It must be a huge house to have a heat loss of 150K +/-.

Carl

gennady

i would

ripped out everything and do over. will be faster and cheaper, and if HO wants to save money, let him transfer this headache to your competitors. 

clammy

Thanks

Thanks for the plan advice .It is a large log home design temp is about 0 and it sits on top of a large hill with very hi winds .All levels are being heated and all are finished the total sq ft of heated are is about 4700 sq ft .There are lots of wndows n sliders and of course catheral cieling with open stair well from 1st to 2 nd floor and a open stairwell from base to 1 st fl.Living rm ,dining and kitchen are of a large open floor plan,The home is very tight and is not leaky at all ,i have been there in super  windy weather and there where no drafts or leakage we could dectect very tight .It is a total shame that this houses heating system is a wash but the guy shouyld have know better he had to have alot of the plumbing redone also they did not vent any of the waste lines and everytime they flushed a tiolet it was sucking the prime out of sinks and shower traps and the sinks and showers would burp .All of the contractors where recommended by the log company /builder from that area.The heat lose is about 15 % over being there is some fudge numbers in for the uninsulated slab radiant which will just be slight floor warming if not abanoned.It is really a shame a huge waste of money and time for all parties involuved saddest part some where reccomended by manafactures and all where licensced which as of late does not seem to guarente anything .The real funny part is if i where to have  gone and priced  the job totally they would have shown me the door and called me a crook but all said and done it still would have been less money then what they have thrown away so far and really have just about nothing to show for it except for alot of scrap .Thanks again peace and good luck clammy

Zman

I get it..

Log home guys are the worst. I think they are trying so hard to convince the owner that log homes don't cost more, they hire hacks to do the other work. I learned a long time ago to walk away from log home jobs on a budget.

It won't help your efficiency , but you may try "idling" that uninsulated slab so it doesn't have to work so hard getting up to temp.

Carl

clammy

Thanks Carl

yuppie git that right .The saddest part is the HO a decent guy who is from my area and owns and operates a large landscaping construction company that does some excellent work top shelve stuff .He did a ton of research on log homes and through testimonies and customers great reviews chose the builder who recommended all these other guys .Aside from the heating /plumbing and electric issue he went through the framing and wood work is dead on they really did a awesome job but all the rest was a crap shot.I personally like to leave no stone unturned on looking at promblems on bad installs  but my partner whos contact this is ,is a feet first deal with issue s latter which always leads to issues later on  espically when it comes to money .This is not my first waltz and it is not like i just got into bussiness yesterday. i have been in the phvac  for over 30 years and i do not claim to know it all or even close to it and i was never a arm chair mech .I got my wings out in the field doing the work and all that i learned was either the hard way or though studing on my own and of course reading installation and operation manuals and a few great very smart bosses and lots of great old timers who where as tough as nails with diamond exteriors  .thanks again for your input and as always peace and good luck clammy