Polybutylene

Zman

Gentlemen,

I am working with a client who is trying to sell his home.

The heating system consists of polybutylene tubing. It is grey vanguard circa 1993. 3/4" mains feed 3/8" tubing embedded in gypcrete. The manifolds are also PB (infloor brand block style). The boiler is the second for the house and is a teledyne endurance (formerly heatmaker). The boiler show signs of corrosion and the water is rusty. The system has outdoor reset mixing and runs at a max temp of 130.The tubing shows no sign of discoloration and is pliable.



The buyer had an inspection performed in which the inspector noted the corrosion on the boiler. He also noted the polybutylene tubing and made reference to the class action lawsuits of the 90's.



The buyer is very concerned about the tubing.



I have tried to educate the buyer that the lawsuits were more about the fittings and that his larger problem is the lack of oxygen barrier,poor quality manifolds and failing boiler.



I have recommended the following:

The system should be cleaned

The manifolds should be replaced

The boiler, DHW exchanger and circulators exp tank ect.should be replaced with stainless.

I would probably use TT prestige solo with a heat-flo exchanger.



My question is,

Does anyone have reservations about the polybutylene's longevity in this application?

Has anyone seen failure of polybutylene in this type of system (low temp heating).

Any thoughts on a better solution?

Thank you in advance,

Carl

Mark Eatherton

Answers...

No, No, No and you're welcome ;-)



Don't leave ANY ferric components in the system, or degradation will be focused.



You're headed down a good path. An alternative would be constant chemical treatment and monitoring. Not my favorite, but a possible deal maker.



ME

Zman

Thank You

Mark,

With all the information (and misinformation) out there, it is always good to get a reality check.

Thanks,

Carl

Zman

Uphill Battle

Looks like this may be a deal killer. The Buyer has found a "consultant" who has painted a dim view of PB.He claims failure is certain and that the home may be uninsurable.

Does anyone know of resource that has "case studies" or other research on the longevity of PB in this application.

Thanks

Carl

Mark Eatherton

The ONLY polysuitelene failures I am aware of...

were installed in situations where the local water plant was generating excessive ppm of chlorine in order to maintain the required 2 ppm at the ends of the system. In closed loop heating system, there have been no failures to my knowledge, which is not limited...



Tell your owner to have his "consultant" divulge the report where failure is certain in a closed loop heating application. And be certain they understand the difference between an open system and a closed system. There is a BIG difference.



ME

icesailor

"Consultants"/Experts:

Someone whom considered them an authority on all things once explained to me that:

"X" is an unknown quantity and "Spert" is a drip under pressure.

"Those that can, do. And those that can't,  become teachers, "Consultants" or Building Inspectors. Where thay can take out their anger and frustration on us all.

kcopp

sounds to....

me that they are just looking for a way to get out of it. There is a lot of misinformation about PB out there..... just look at youtube. Its their loss.

Mark Eatherton

That thought crossed my mind too Kevin...

The purchaser ALWAYS wants to get a "good deal", and finding a home that has something allegedly defective in it is an opening for a BIG deduction in the basic cost of the home. So they ask for and receive a large break in the price of the house, and then the new HO sits on it, waiting for it to shoot craps, and it won't. And Carl will get stuck with the task of trying to keep the whole thing together. They don't want to know the truth...



ME

Zman

Eye opening

This thread has been an eye opener for me. I really expected with 210 views I would here a few stories of failed poly in low temp closed loop heating. I think I should ask the inspector and consultant to provide some cases to back up their opinions.

I suspected that this was the buyer's "out" earlier. I just wish they had picked a different one.

Thank you all,

Carl

Mark Eatherton

The biggest problem is the insurance companies...

If you have a known "defective" or recalled product in your house (Entran II for example), the insurance company will not cover you for any water claims, regardless of whether the damage is related to the tubing or not. That in and of itself could be a deal breaker. And really, the only correct way out of it is to get a concession in the sales price from the seller for the costs associated with replacement of the system. And then it is important for the purchaser to follow through with the replacement program, and then all coverage is reset. The largest annual loss factor in homeowners insurance is due to water damage. It is simply amazing the amount of damage that water can do when unleashed. COnsider the use of a PIG to limit the potential damage a leak in the heating system could do. The insurance company won't give any breaks unless the "device" to limit liability is UL approved, like the Water Cop.



Face it. the insurance companies spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to NOT pay claims. It's how they make money. Take, take, take, and rarely give it back. Maybe you should approach the potential buyer with the intent of a complete system replacement... If the deals not already gone south.



ME