Richardson System Piping

Fizz

As noted in previous posts, this is a vapor/vac system with els having steel ball instead of traps, with graduated supply valves. My particular system has 11 original radiators and 3 add-ons which are with traps.  The first add-on has a run off one of original loops of a about 25 ft, with it's own air return with 2 rad of 140 sq ft radiation, it is vented at end of return by a maid o' mist; the other add-on is piped off a lateral which is part of original loop which has 8 radiators, with total of 244 sf. all other rads are original but one of supply valves was replaced with packless valves this loop has no has no dedicated vent relying on a Gorton # 2 mian vent; the other loop off the main has 4 original rads with 144 sq ft of radiation vented by a gorton #1.  As noted in prior post I will be replacing presuretrol with vaporstat.  Two rads on 8 radiator loop occasionally troublesome and they are where the add-on was added, do you think more venting on this loop is the answer?

gerry gill

is there a way you can

Post a drawing of the system..isometric would be best..or perhaps a link to a you tube video of the piping? That would help alot.

Fizz

Will try

Will try to draw schematic.

jumper

what venting ?

From what I gather in LostArt Richardson system has no vents, only air eliminators. Can you replace vents with vacuum generator? Either water or compressed air powered. Low pressure steam distributes itself easily if there is no air.

gerry gill

that air expeller

is the air vent, and can be replaced with a main vent today.

Fizz

Gorton #2

Air eliminator had been replaced by vacuum vent, and I replaced vacuum vent with a Gorton #2.

Fizz

Piping drawing for Richardson System

These are rudimentary at best.  Hope they help.  Drawing on left shows original loop with add-on rads in red piping.  Note dedicated air vent on return from kitchen add-ons.  Other add-on is part of original loop, which has no dedicated vent, relying on main Gorton 2.  Drawing on left shows 2nd original loop, with vent at begining of air return.

gerry gill

This is hard to do without being there.

there are so many variables and possibilities here. Its like trying to do a medical diagnosis without seeing the patient..maybe this will help.



1- i always cringe a bit when i see more than one radiator on a runout.

2- the size of the pipes can only handle so much steam, no matter how many taps there are.

3- orifice valves, or orifice discs inserted into the unions of two pipe valves may help alot here.

4- strategically placed vents on the supply pipe and air locking the return may help.

5- if you were the steam, and your just looking for a point of lower pressure to go to, and your neighbor is having a condensing, vacuum forming party over in radiator 'A' why would you go to radiator 'B' even if there is no obstruction and its return is open to the atmosphere?



I don't know if any of that will help you. Its meant to give you something to think about.

Fizz

Being here would definitely help

The run-out you're concerned about has 2 add on 70sq ft rads attached serviced by old trane valves which have round handle with pointer on disc which has Off, some indicator lines the number 30, more indicator lines then On.  Assume they are graduated valves.  Both heat very well, with traditional traps in place.  The other add-on has 30sq ft rad with similar type valve, no poiter or indicator, but opens in less than one full turn.  Letters MC over one another on housing. All other 11 rads have original Richardson handles, except one which has packed valve.  According to literature on this site Richardson are graduated valves, but some posts describe them as orificed???  All original rads have union elbow with ball cock.  I know drawing not the best. 

gerry gill

okay, well, getting back to your original question,

if you wonder if the return main would benefit from more venting, just remove the main vent from the pipe and try running the system..you should be able to observe your answer..if steam comes out the pipe where the vent is located, that would be bad and indicate that one or more radiators are open to far..throttle those down..you should be able to run that system with no steam in the return pipes, and the air vents would when installed serve only as the emergency shut off for the inevitable day steam does get into the return..altho they do restrict the venting of the air when on the pipes, so if the system runs better without the air vent, then add more air vents until you have enough to equal the results obtained with an open pipe..also make sure your radiators are not sagging away from the richardson elbow or the ball could roll back against the radiator stub and basically shut down its venting ability.

Fizz

Venting possibilities

Great idea Gerry.  Will try it.  One more concern regarding vent location, the 2nd loop has a vent at beginning of return before supply to rads and farthest from end of return, would this matter?  Thanks again for insight re main vent.



Fizz

gerry gill

i think when i did the 'remove the vent from the return test',

i would remove and plug the vent that was added at the beginning of the return, and see how things go..to my knowledge the only vapor system that had a vent at the beginning (high point) of the dry return was hoffman. And they did it for a relatively unique reason. In theory it shouldn't matter but in practice the condensate could be going one way while the air is going against it, slowing down its return by making 'waves'..

Fizz

Creating waves

Yes, the Richardson scheme on this site shows vent at end of main.  Just got vaporstat put on, axious to see results with it and your tips.  Thanks again Gerry!

Fizz

Pictures of venting

These should give an idea of how system is vented.  First vent is Maid O'Mist at end of add-on dry run off 1st loop; 2nd is Main vent, Gorton #2 and 3rd is Gorton #1 at beginning of dry return on 2nd loop.

Fizz

Latest on rads

Had vaporstat installed, system running on 1-3 oz.  Had 2 rads mentioned previously off as one valve was generic incorrect on Richardson rad, the other Richardson seized in closed position.  While running system without these rads on it was perfect!  Previously heard a clicking like sound when rads in question were open, last season, but hadn't heard since today, which is first heating cycle since I had a Mepco orificing valve placed on rads in question and they are open.  Now the one rad doesn't get hot and the other gets hot just past valve union.  Also, noted two other rads didn't get as much heat accross them.  Is it possible one of els is blocked?  If not where to look?