Electric Boiler vs Electric Baseboard

OhioRuss

I am starting from scratch in a cavernous 1870's brick house, with solid brick walls. My thought was to install cast iron rads with a TRV in each room powered by an electric boiler such as Electro (Nat gas not available) However, the electrician is urging me to forget about the cast iron rads (I already got them) and instead use electric baseboards. He argues they will be cheaper to install and more cost efficient to run. Thoughts?



I did a heat loss calc and the main and second floor are about 45,000BTU each and the lower level is about 30,000BTU.



Thank you for your help

jumper

skip hydronic

If you're going electric, why complicate ?

Why not go with liquid filled baseboards?



And if you do go hydronic, why not dampered terminals instead of TRVs ?

pipe4zen

one word

comfort !



Cast iron radianting heat is far more comfortable feeling.



True a kilowatt is a kilowatt , but when a room feels comfortable, plus with TRV , you may be able to run the electric boiler at a lower supply temperature, coupled with outdoor reset, go with the boiler.

Paul48

Have

you run the numbers on what it will cost to heat with electric vs, oil, or even propane high efficiency?

VictoriaEnergy

Baseboards vs CI rads

Electric baseboards produce only convection heat.  Hot air, that tends to rise.  Cast Iron rads produce a combination of Radiant heat and convection heat, so you expect to get a better quality of heat from the rads.  Older houses tend to suffer from higher heat loss due to air leaking in & out of the house, again this favors the rads.



Also consider if you do hot water heat, you could change the boiler to a different fuel source in the future if natural gas, propane or oil becomes available and less costly in the future.  There are huge issues with electricity generation and distribution that all point to higher expected inflationary pressure on electric rates.



I also think cast iron rads really benefit the character of older homes.  So much so I'd do it for that reason alone.

Paul48

Even

at the ridiculous electric rates here in CT, the price per therm would be very good.However, the utility company has forced me to time of day rates, because one month last summer was over their threshold. I am penalized for power used between noon and 8p.m. Monday thru Friday. Here that threshold will be reduced every year, and more and more people will be forced to accept that rate.Check with your local utility before you "jump in both feet".Make sure they don't have a similar initiative. At least you'll know what to expect if you do proceed. I'd have to upgrade my service. I'd need 150 amps at 240 single phase, for the boiler alone.

jumper

disagree & agree

liquid filled baseboards do radiate. They're not the same as off-on electrics. If OhioRuss is starting from scratch, he should insulate & seal. Probably won't need 200 amps just for heat.

But I do agree that hydronic system provides option to use different fuel in future.

jumper

radiant heat

can painting a radiator change its convection versus radiation ratio?

LarryC

Reducing convection of radiators.

To significantly choke off the convection heat transfer of a radiator, put a cover on it.  To reduce its output even more, enclose it in a cabinet.

OhioRuss

Thanks

So if I understand, there is no difference in efficiency or cost to operate between a hydronic boiler with cast iron rads verses electric baseboard? The only difference is installation costs?



Currently, price per BTU for electric is slightly cheaper than with propane or oil. I realize that can change.



Finally, I've been looking at Electro electric boiler. Any others I should consider?

Paul48

Check

the power requirements for the Electros. That is where I came up with the 150 amps I'd need.

SWEI

TOU rates

Are the cold hard reality of any electric grid.  The historical oddity that most consumer rates don't reflect this is actually rather unfortunate for both our utilities and our environment.



On the upside, they can make thermal storage quite attractive.

Paul48

re: TOU rates

Shifting peak demand has nothing to do with enviromental friendliness. Go to youtube and search Kapanadze...then ask yourself...will they be able to keep the cat in the bag?

SWEI

TOU rates

Flat electric rates prevent market forces from influencing consumer behavior by removing price transparency.  This distorts equipment purchases (by obscuring real ROI) which results in vastly increased emissions of all types - a significant environmental impact.



I've got an open mind, but my standards of proof remain quite high for anything claiming to circumvent basic laws of physics.  I'm "from Missouri" on this stuff -- show me something that can generate a few kW for at least a few weeks on end...

Paul48

SWEI

I'm also skeptical. I find these things interesting, and hope that we can develop something like that. The basic laws of physics were written by men. They worked with the knowledge they had at the time. At best, they are  incomplete.

SWEI

back to the subject at hand

I would far prefer an electric boiler driving hot water radiant if it were my choice.  In addition to the enhanced comfort which properly designed and installed low temperature radiant heat provides, it leaves options of solar, biomass, or GSHP at some later date.



There is the issue of first costs -- electric baseboard heat is truly about as cheap as it gets there.  I know of a number of near-passivhaus level passive solar designs built recently using electric baseboard backup heat (it literally runs just a few hours per year there.)