New American Steam Heating Assoc. looking for your support!

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro) · April 2012

For all those wanting to support the comfort and efficiency of steam heating for today and into the future.….

 

Steamhead (Frank Wilsey) and The Steam Whisperer (Dave Bunnell) are teaming up to get the Steam and Vapor Heating Association of America (SVHAA) up and running. 

We need your help and vision for the future! 

 We see the need for:

 

1. Training and Certification for Steam technicians

2. Promotional and Advertising support to show that steam heating is an excellent heating alternative for today. 

3. Research and Development of steam heating methods 

4. YOUR IDEAS!

 

The Best and Brightest in the Steam Industry have already pledged support, including

 

Dan Holohan, HeatingHelp.com, New York

Denny Malloy, Profit Products, Chicago

Harold Kemper, Porter Pipe and Supply, Chicago

Gerry Gill, G.W.Gill Plumbing and Heating, Cleveland

 

And additional support from other organizations for testing, training, etc.

 

If you are interested in supporting these efforts:

1. Please post here and send your contact info to newsvhaa@gmail.com so we can keep everyone up to date

2. Provide us with information of any talents, contacts, or other ways that you can support this effort 

 

Thank you to you all!!

SWEI · April 2012

Good news

and there are quite a few manufacturers who should be very supportive.

Mark Eatherton · April 2012

Congratulations!!!

Hopefully the rest of the respected steam authorities will join in. Has anyone been in touch with Christian Egli?

Let me know how I can help.

ME

Paul Fredricks_3 · April 2012

Sounds good to me

Let steam live!

RJ_4 · April 2012

steam

let me know what help is needed especially on the commercial steam side. Live in the Denver area

RJ

David Sutton_6 · April 2012

Sure sounds good to me !!

>

Dan Foley · April 2012

Count me in....

Count me in. Let me know how I can help.

- DF

Charlie from wmass · April 2012

tell me more

I would be interested in learning more about it.

Steamhead · April 2012

We're just getting this off the ground

but, based on the huge installed base of steam heating in America, the need is definitely there. When we look at the sometimes-drastic cuts in fuel consumption that are possible on these systems with proper de-knuckleheading, and the increases in comfort available from the same source, it's a no-brainer. See Dan's book "Greening Steam" for some examples of this.

We hope to get involved in training (not to displace Dan, Firedragon and others already doing a great job) working with manufacturers to get more-advanced product out there, possibly building a collection of steam-heating data that you can't find elsewhere, promotion of steam as a modern, efficient heat source for new and rehabbed buildings (tip of the hat to Gerry Gill's mini-tube system and Igor Zhadanovsky's work with vacuum and piping applications), serving as consultants for contractors having steam-system troubles, and maybe some other things that you all might suggest.

I hope to see at least some of you at the OESP conference in Providence, RI, May 20-24. Not sure if Steam Whisperer will be there, but Gordon and I will. We'll also be at the AREE show in Atlantic City next week. Here are links to these shows:

http://www.naohsm.org/2012-info.cfm

http://www.areetradeshow.com/

You can reach me at four four three eight five one four four one one at the shows.

STEAM DOCTOR · April 2012

Certification

I think that testing and certifying techs is one of the biggest benefits. I am in the steam business (Queens NY;one of the steam capitals of the world) and the one thing that comes up again and again is that nobody knows whom to trust with there steam system. I see endless knuckleheaded systems that were worked on by "the highly recommended". Even on this site there is no good way to know which of those advertising are really competent and which aren't. A certification through proper testing would be a good way for customers to know which contractors to trust. This site would be a great place to start and hopefully it can take off from there.

Tim McElwain · April 2012

I am certainly not on a level

with all the Gurus of steam but will look you up at OESP Frank and maybe we can talk. I am just not sure if my training is on the same level with Dan and Firedragon so I would not want to get into competition with them. Maybe I could offer my center as a location for some training. We will talk if you can find some time.

I can't afford a booth so I will just be walking around the show and I have to stay low key as I am not allowed to solicit or advertise at the show.

Frank I have your number.

Steamhead · April 2012

Excellent!

I had hoped you would be there- it will be good to see you again as always.

Jason Quinn · April 2012

Great idea

You have my support too. Looking forward to seeing progress and becoming involved.

Luv'nsteam · May 2012

I think this is a great idea!

I am not a steam tech, but I AM a steam advocate. The biggest issue I see with steam is ignorance of the people (isn't that the problem everywhere??). If steam could be promoted for the great strengths and benefits it provides, maybe the public could be swayed back into using it again. Costs of installation probably need to come down, though, if that's even possible.

Viva La Steam! no? : )

Thank you,

Mike

Jim Pompetti · May 2012

Steam Heat

Steamhead , keep us in the loop

Tim McElwain · May 2012

Here is the issue as

I see it and please don't mis understand I love steam and live in an area of the country that is loaded with steam boilers. When the new efficiency DOE requirements come into place most steam boilers on the market today will not be able to meet the requirements.

So picture this Mr Jones steam boiler goes in 2015 due to a crack. The tech goes to get a replacement there will not be a replacement. So what does he do now.

My question is this concerning this group are you going to get involved with attempting to influence the DOE to recognize this very big problem that is just around the corner?

izhadano · May 2012

Vapor vacuum heating system

Hello, everyone.

below is an abstract of "Vapor Vacuum Heating technology" article. Frank "Steamhead" mentioned problems with attachments, so you can download the text from here http://db.tt/2hkAZdql

Testing of the Demo setup confirmed/exceed all initial assumptions. Results on Demo setup testing are here http://db.tt/8lYUcYeq

Please, let me know if you have any questions. I'd love to discuss the project at OESP show.

Thanks,

Igor

.Abstract

The VVH (Vapor Vacuum Heating) technology utilizes a well-known and widely successful heat transfer concept called the “Heat Pipe”. Since the 1960’s, Heat Pipe devices have demonstrated exceptional efficiency and reliability in many applications ranging from spacecrafts to laptop CPUs.

However, due to high manufacturing cost and length limitations, Heat Pipe technology has not been implemented in buildings’ heating systems. With VVH, the limitations of Heat Pipe technology have been resolved, allowing it to be used in the heating of any building with a variety of heat sources such as boilers, district heating, distributed power systems, and renewable (solar and geothermal) systems. Consequently, a VVHS would offer a much better alternative to traditional heating systems. No other modern heating system can offer such high levels of benefits of each of the following:

• Efficiency

• Health

• Comfort

• Safety

• Low installation cost

• Reliability (no moving parts)

• Space saving

• Minimal maintenance

• Electricity independence (if fueled by gas)

• No frozen pipe problems

• No damage from leaks

• Optional control for either each radiator or zone control, or a combination of both

• Broad operating temperature range.

VVH can be utilized for new installations as well as retrofits. The retrofit of an obsolete steam heating into a VVH system is less expensive and a better alternative to converting into a hydronic system.

Steamhead · May 2012

Of course!

I'm at AREE and we've talked about that with the Burnham people. 90%+ IS possible on steam.

Mark Eatherton · May 2012

Interesting...

Maybe NOW Burnham will authorize their excellent steam generator to be tested with a GAS burner, with a variable turndown capability. We need to hook them up with the lab techs at Lochinvar's burner research lab.

With the available off shelf technology, NO gas burner should be an on/off proposition only. It doesn't matter wether you are looking at temperature, pressure or negative pressure, you CAN set up a reset ratio based on currently available sensor/control technologies. I know at least one (THE one) major blower manufacturer is getting ready to introduce a controller to the industry that would fit the need.

I look forward to more results.

ME

Steamhead · May 2012

A 2-stage Carlin EZ-Gas

would be very easy to do. The EZ-Gas is built off the same EZ chassis used for oil which I believe is the same one used for the H2L. So the motor and controls already exist, and all we'd need is a stock 2-stage gas valve to complete the control system.

Tim McElwain · May 2012

The dilema with a gas two stage

is the flame rod proving on a low fire application. The oil Cad cell is much more forgiving than the flame rod microamp system. I believe the Carlin Burner would have to be modified. I just yesterday converted my classroom Carlin EZ over to a two stage universal Honeywell valve. It worked fine on high fire but I could not keep it operating on low fire with out making a physical air adjustment. I fell it would need a mod motor application in order for it to work and that gets expensive and borders on being a commercial application and then CSD-1 kicks in. So it is not so easy to do.

Tim McElwain · May 2012

ME I have been communicating

with Burnham also and I am getting a little different answer than maybe others are getting from Burnham.

Concerning the Burnham Megasteam:

As far as the Carlin Gas burners in the Megasteam go, we discussed this during some meetings we had with reps from Carlin who were there as part of the meetings. The concern regarding the gas burners is that this boiler was designed and intended to operate with only oil. These have been running in the low to mid 300 net stack temperatures on oil. This will probably result in much lower temps with gas and our concern is condensation in the flue passages. We did test in the lab and had to over-fire them a bit to keep the stack temp up resulting in combustion efficiencies in the very low 80's.

MST for gas. I (Burnham Rep) got the lab to try a few different burners and to get it to perform with the proper positive draft over fire, zero pressure transition at the breech and negative draft in the flue, but the end results were nowhere near what we have tested and certified this boiler for as an oil-fired boiler. The other issue at hand is that if someone does convert this to gas and something goes wrong and someone gets hurt, it becomes a tremendous legal liability for everyone involved. My advice is not to do it unless it has been certified and tested. There are too many wealthy lawyers out there looking to get wealthier!

I personally do not have issues with the lawyer side of this but I understand a manufacturers concern.

My limited experience with MST tells me that with the two I looked at and simply did a combustion test as I was not authorized to make any adjustments (the conversion was done by an oil man who did not want me touching his job) the efficiencies were very close to what Burnham found to be the case with gas. That was around the 80 to 81% combustion efficiency level.

Tim McElwain · May 2012

I am going to

in the next week or so try the two stage gas valve with the Midco EC-200 burner and see if I get any different results. The EC has diffusers so it may have a more stable environment on low fire than the Carlin which is designed to be able to overcome a positive chamber pressure.

In case you are wondering why the two stage business it is this. If the conversion gas burners can be fired as two stage in a design oil boiler it may push the over all AFUE to over 90% which means steam boilers will be available for replacement in the future. That is as long as boiler manufacturers see it as a viable market and are willing to invest in converting at the factory and selling as a finished product OIL BOILERS with a gas burner tested and approved..

Steamhead · May 2012

What turndown

were you using?

Steamhead · May 2012

No word

on whether the baffles were in or out, eh? That would make a huge difference.

I wonder how hard they "tried" those burners, and which models they were? I doubt, for example, that if they tried a Midco EC that it would have worked well. That burner doesn't do well in positive-pressure applications.

Tim McElwain · May 2012

The two stage gas valve

I am using goes to low fire based on gas pressure not turn-down. Turn-down would have to be done electronically and that just makes it more complicated. Most two stage gas valves used on residential controls other than European valves use a higher gas pressure for high fire typically 3.2" W.C. to 3.5" W.C. the low fire is around 1.1"W.C. to 1.7" W.C.. I fired this unit at settings from 1.2" to 1.7" and could not keep the burner from going into lock out when it cut to low fire. To be fair I am not firing this unit into a combustion chamber but into the open air. Still most I think would hold at around 2" which is typically the lowest I have ever set gas pressure on a conversion burner.

Steamhead · May 2012

Right- what I meant was

how far down did that take the BTU input as opposed to high fire?

Tim McElwain · May 2012

I am using the Carlin EZ gas set for 130,000

BTU's on high fire. It has diffuser "B" . The lowest recommended setting on O2 for this burner is 3% so that is my setting. I am using a Honeywell Two Stage 24 volt valve VR-8345Q-4563. Keep in mind the gas valve on the EZ gas is a 120 volt valve so this required some retrofitting to use a 24 volt valve.

The settings on that valve are as follows on high fire you can set pressure between 3.0" W.C. to 5" W.C.. On low fire it is factory set at 1.7" W.C. and adjustable from .9 to 3.0 " W.C.

I fired it initially at 3.5" W.C. on high fire 130,000 BTU's and 1.7" W.C. (factory setting on valve) which gave me 100,000 it stayed on for about 45 seconds before going into lockout. The microamp reading was at around .8 and fluctuating. I tried dropping the pressure down to 1" W.C. to see what would happen. It locked out immediately at the lower input which would be around 70,000 BTU's and I could not even catch it quick enough to get a microamp reading. I attempted all kinds of different air settings keeping in mind this is the single slot air band. I can not keep it running on a low fire setting.

I am going to when I have time try the two stage valve with the Midco EC-200 burner.

ttekushan_3 · May 2012

great idea!

At an earlier date, I sent an email I sent to The Steam Whisperer on the concept of a steam heating association. This is a mildly edited version:

A Steam Heating Association with certifications, etc. is one of the best ideas I've heard in awhile! Around my household, everyone is painfully aware that one of my major peeves is that it seems everyone who is licensed in some fashion to work on steam heating systems in my area need not know anything about them. The plumbers can put in a boiler but they need not know anything about steam heating; HVAC (furnace and AC contractors) are "qualified" to work on steam heating but don't need to know anything about it. Combustion people can work on it, but need not know anything about it. Hydronics specialists can work on it but usually have no affinity for steam at all. Even the large boiler outfits that do a lot of process steam work or even power boiler work don't know much about steam space heating applications. As a matter of fact, the latter are most likely to screw up the equalizer and turn the pressure up to 10 PSI. The largest reputable local steam and hydronics experts are adequate at replacing boilers, but inept at troubleshooting steam systems. A technician I know who once worked at a small shop near me (with steam heat) contributed to so thoroughly screwing up their building's steam heating system that I believe they went to some kind of individual heat pump system. When the small shop closed, this tech wound up being hired by one of the local HVAC companies as their steam "expert!" When I would comment about the terrible performance of the steam system at the small shop, it never mattered what I said but the reply was the same: "That's just the way steam is, there's nuthin' you can do about it." Sigh.

Regardless, we "vapor heads" know that there's something dynamic going on with steam that can be used to advantage and deliver comfort with low fuel consumption that belies the boiler's nominal efficiency ratings. I have my own select list of amazing success stories with steam, although the all-time best is a church about 40 miles from me. The steam heating was installed when they added onto the building in 1885. It was one of those systems that had gotten so screwed up that getting results was easy. I have asked them for their fuel usage numbers for the last 5 years in order to document the results in terms of gas used per degree day but I'm still waiting. But going by their budgeted monthly gas bills, they went from about $2,100 per month in 2006, 2007, 2008, and after the work in early fall of 2008 the budget amount dropped to $970 in 2009 (with the continued high gas prices and bitterly cold winter). They called me several weeks ago on another matter but were delighted to tell me that with today's low gas prices and the mild winter, their budget has been reduced to about $275 per month. And yes, the gas utility checked the meter! BTW, none of the major system components were changed. Just rehabbed, introduction of hi-lo firing and then "dialed in."

I don't think there is anyone in the heating establishment that would believe these numbers with steam heating, but there it is. But I know you would believe it.

I am thankful for people like you and Steamhead out there who want to pull this thing together. If I understand you correctly, there are two perspectives here, 1) to get all the "heritage" steam heating systems out there upgraded or dialed in by educated technicians, and 2) promoting new "right sized" steam heating installations.

I wholeheartedly agree with both propositions. And with some organized presence, I believe a steam heating association could convince the industry to do that "apples to apples" comparison between Forced Air, Low Temperature Hydronics and Steam Heat that Steamhead has wanted to see for so many years.

As you might imagine, I have some specific thoughts on the future steam heating that involves an on-demand, fast-recovery, occupancy-based, micro-zoned, mini-tube, semi-sealed system that could be cheaper to install than today's low temp hydronic systems. I had assumed that the ideas would die with me, but the creation of a steam association might provide a venue for sharing a technical paper on such a thing and perhaps generate a controlled test case. I wish to share these ideas freely, but maybe this is the impetus I need to get off my behind and get it all down on paper!

Let me know if there is anything I can do that would help you out.

Terry

“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.” -Margaret Mead

ttekushan_3 · May 2012

low fire

This is a worthy endeavor.

I have found that a common thread in steam heating systems that run very economically is full modulation or high low firing. I've had great results with Hi-Lo firing when I can adjust the Low fire rate to the specific heating system in question. In other words, when it goes to Low fire, I want to adjust to a turndown that holds the steam pressure even, with neither much hunting between low and high fire nor on/off cycling of the burner. This sweet spot really can bring fuel consumption to a startling low number.

The problem with this procedure is that it takes time and some trial and error to get it dialed in. And it has to be customized to each system. Full Modulation gets around this but is a) suitable only to larger installations (at least for now) and b) precludes "vapor system" pressures with today's off the shelf modulating controls.

ttekushan_3 · May 2012

Ingenious.

I would have thought that the single supply line idea would be noisy, but I can see that the checked return and intermittent operation would solve this problem. Interesting.

izhadano · May 2012

Vapor vacuum heating system

Thanks, Terry, - you're the first to catch potential benefits.

There are transparent Teflon inserts (shown in report, Figure 1 http://db.tt/8lYUcYeq) to see the flows:

vapor flow from boiler (insert#4) http://db.tt/2QeymFCH

float ball check valve when boiler started ((insert#1) http://db.tt/haDmJZVO

condensate return (insert#4) http://db.tt/8QmeyK4G

I wouldn't claim that the system is absolutely silent, but definetely a "whisper" compared to the steam system in my house. Again, it's a single line 3/4" and 1/2" copper tubing which is probably oversized.

Igor

Steamhead · May 2012

Sounds like

you were running too lean on low fire.

Unlike the standard EZ and EZ-Gas burners, I believe the H2L has some way of reducing the air supply on low-fire to keep the fuel-air mixture within spec- might have to do with the variable-speed motor. Larger burners of course do this with dampers. A gas H2L could handle the air the same way as the oil one.

Steamhead · May 2012

Update

Dave and I are looking at putting the association's organization together, and funding the association. We will also need to get a website going.

Since most of us are in different cities, we will need to have our meetings online at least for now. Skype Conferencing is a workable (and free) way to do this, and according to The Lovely Naoko it works pretty well. You do need a broadband Internet connection to use it though. Anyone have any other suggestions?

izhadano · May 2012

Update

Skype video conferencing is limited to 10 people. It will be tricky to include more http://community.skype.com/t5/Video/want-to-set-up-skype-video-conference-for-25-participant/td-p/431945

Optionally, 2 weeks free trial is available from http://mytrial.webex.com/us14?TrackID=1021381 for up to 25 people conference

New American Steam Heating Assoc. looking for your support!

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