steam heat malfunction?

judyk

Hi, I've gotten help here before and I'm hoping you can help again. I live in a 4 floor apartment building with a single-pipe steam system. Since the boiler was turned on int he fall I've had the following problem: Everything is fine, I can adjust the radiators using the valve on the left side, when suddenly, everything goes nuts and heat starts pouring out of the radiators even though they are turned off (even turned off with the knob on the right side). I've complained and the problem has gone away. But now it's been happening all week. The management company (useless), says that this is "residual heat" from a normal heating cycle. I maintain that's nonsense, since the radiators have functioned properly for a couple of weeks at a time in the midst of winter. I don't know anything, but it seems almost as though a valve or a sensor gets stuck or something. What would cause the radiators to suddenly blaze away even though they are turned off? I just can't believe the system is supposed to function this way. If my windows were not wide open, it would be 110 degrees in here.



Thank you for your help.

Judith

Rod

Radiator Vent

Hi Judith- Sorry to hear you are having a problem with your radiator. Is this the only radiator you're having problems with? 

We need to know a bit more about your radiator.  Attached below is a diagram of a one pipe radiator. Can you either provide us with a picture of the radiator showing the vent and/or the brand name of the vent and any numbers that are on the vent.



There are two basic types of radiator vent, One type looks like a can of cat food on its side and the other looks like a silver bullet pointing upward.  The radiator vent is a special type valve that allows air to escape from the radiator but closes when steam (heat) reaches it which traps the steam inside the radiator so it can give off its heat.



If you don't want heat, you need to shut of the vent so that air can't escape. If the air can't get out, the steam can't get in. If it is the silver bullet type of vent you can try turning the whole vent over so it is pointing straight down as this will shut the vent. Give us more info on the vent and we will then be able to advise you. It maybe that you just need a new vent. Once we have determined what type of vent you have, we should be able to tell you where to find obtain a new one. Actually your land lord should be responsible for that.

- Rod

Hap_Hazzard

It sounds like

she might have a varivalve or something similar. She spoke of adjusting the valve on the left and turning off the knob on the right, so it must be some kind of adjustable vent, and if it's a varivalve, you can't turn them off by flipping them over because they don't have a float.

gerry gill

One thing is for certain.

If you still get heat when your Inlet valve is closed, then that valve no longer works.. And the heat which is steam is condensing in a radiator that at that pointmay as well have its Inlet valve throttled, since it doesn't shut off.. You say things were fine during winter.. We're the Inlet valves fully open during winter? Did that make any senceto you?

Paul48

Actually

And I know this is of little comfort to you.....Your problem( too much heat), is probably the easier of the 2 alternatives to correct.If the problem was with the system, as a whole, getting the management co. to deal with it might be near impossible.Adjustable vents and regular vents allow air to escape from the system, and are necessary, but will not stop your radiator from overheating your apartment, because the thermostat controlling the boiler may be in a colder location.If you post some pictures of the radiator, with good shots of the vent, as seen in the picture above, someone will help you out.Given the option of replacing the valve and vent for you, or buying you a slightly more expensive thermostatic vent, that you can easily install yourself ( with a little guidance), the management company may opt for the latter.

judyk

type of valve and overheating problem

Hi everyone,

I can't get a picture of the radiator here at the moment (left for Easter), but I can tell you that the valve is the bullet type.  Both valves were changed in the fall when I moved in.  I don't know if they're the kind that can be turned upside down--I'll have to send a picture when I get back.  I did assume that the valves were functioning, since under what I am calling "normal" conditions--by which I mean the steam pipe that runs through the kitchen gets hot and I hear the heat trying to come up--the valve in the "off" position, keeps the radiator from heating up just as it is supposed to.  But periodically (and this is the mysterious part), the heat just seems to go crazy.  The valves have not been moved, but the radiators are boiling hot.  And the heat doesn't seem to cycle normally--the radiators are just very hot all night long.  I guess it is true that the knob on the right that closes the steam off from the boiler is not connected to a functioning valve at this point.  Part of my problem here is that the management company refuses to deal with the problem.  They claim that I am experiencing "residual heat" and that everything is fine. 



Can someone answer this question for me:  If other people in the building complain of being cold and the heat is somehow turned up at the boiler, would that necessarily make my radiators  blazing hot even though the valves are off and have been controlling the heat all along?  Is that how  a single-pipe system is meant to work?  I'm arguing with management under the assumption that the system can be adjusted more equitably. 



I understand I've written too much here.  Thank you all again

Judith

judyk

thank you

Hi everyone,

I can't get a picture of the radiator here at the moment (left for Easter), but I can tell you that the valve is the bullet type. Both valves were changed in the fall when I moved in. I don't know if they're the kind that can be turned upside down--I'll have to send a picture when I get back. I did assume that the valves were functioning, since under what I am calling "normal" conditions--by which I mean the steam pipe that runs through the kitchen gets hot and I hear the heat trying to come up--the valve in the "off" position, keeps the radiator from heating up just as it is supposed to. But periodically (and this is the mysterious part), the heat just seems to go crazy. The valves have not been moved, but the radiators are boiling hot. And the heat doesn't seem to cycle normally--the radiators are just very hot all night long. I guess it is true that the knob on the right that closes the steam off from the boiler is not connected to a functioning valve at this point. Part of my problem here is that the management company refuses to deal with the problem. They claim that I am experiencing "residual heat" and that everything is fine.



Can someone answer this question for me: If other people in the building complain of being cold and the heat is somehow turned up at the boiler, would that necessarily make my radiators blazing hot even though the valves are off and have been controlling the heat all along? Is that how a single-pipe system is meant to work? I'm arguing with management under the assumption that the system can be adjusted more equitably.



I understand I've written too much here. Thank you all again

Judith

Paul48

Hi Judy

Trying to figure out what might be happening with the system is a waste of time.Neither you, or any of us, can do anything about it, and management won't. You can control the heat in your apartment though. We really need to know what you have for vents on your radiators to be able to offer advice. We've had some fairly warm days lately, followed by quite cold nights. Maybe some knuckhead has a window open to let fresh air in, and that window is next to the thermostat that controls the boiler.The boiler might run all night long. Long enough for a radiator with a tiny amount of venting to get hot, and then it will stay hot, all night.That's just speculation, and one possible scenario.The vents they replaced may be cleaned, used vents. Does steam come out of them, or do they spit? Anyway.....Happy Easter!

Hap_Hazzard

Mug shots

Okay, only a total steam-geek would think anybody would remember what their radiator vents look like while they're away on vacation, but here are some pictures of the more popular adjustable radiator vents. If you don't see one that looks like yours, we can come up with more.

gerry gill

Addressing your adjustment assumption,

yes, any steam system can reach 'balance' which is the term we use for each radiator getting the correct amount of steam at about the same time..however and this is a big however, 'adjustment' of valves etc. only goes so far..the system has to be functioning right..the boiler has to work right..be correctly filled with the right height of water, ..clean water..the controller has to function properly be it a t-stat, tekmar control or other device..assuming the system functions as it should its not that hard to balance things out..it sounds to me that things got way out of hand with the maintenance or lack of maintenance regarding the boiler and system there.

judyk

vents

Hi again!

My vent looks most like the one in the middle photograph--like a big bullet. It has a small hole in the top and says "Barnes and [something I can't read] Newtonville" on it. There are some numbers on the side next to the wall (looks as though they are written diagonally across the vent), but I can't get close enough to read them. When I have opened the vent in the winter (and things were working properly), they hissed as air came out the top.



Also, they have a small dial at the bottom (white) with numbers on it. Presumably, you can turn it to 1 for very little heat, or to 7 for maximum heat. I thought it was functioning properly, as I could get a little heat when needed. But after the heat started blasting, the off position no longer corresponds to the lowest number. I don't know why. In other words, when the vent is in the off position, the number reads 5. I thought maybe there was something delicate in the vent that got blown out by the excessive heat--but maybe that's crazy. Obviously, I really have no idea.



I can't believe there is a site like this, or that you are willing to help! I am very grateful.



Thank you--Judy

judyk

inlet valves

Hi Gerry,

Yes, I guess the inlet valve (the knob near the floor that controls the steam into the radiator) must be shot. During the winter, I did have that knob in the open position, and could control the heat with the adjustable valve on the other end (looks like a big silver bullet). I guess if I stay here next year, I can have that intake valve fixed so that it will turn off? Is that possible?



Many thanks,

judy

gerry gill

yes Judy,

a new inlet valve will help..the old one probably doesn't have a washer on it any more, or if it does, its been cooked for 80 years and no longer seals.

Hap_Hazzard

Vent-Rite #1

That sounds like a Vent-Rite #1 (pictured here). Not sure what that name might be, unless maybe it's Barnes & Jones, but as far as I know they only make steam traps for two-pipe systems.



At any rate, it does appear to be a float-type vent, so it should close if you turn it upside-down. Usually you can just rotate it 180° clockwise, but if it seems to hard to turn you might need to unscrew it, put fresh PTFE tape on it, and screw it back in until it's snug and upside-down. Make sure you do this when the heat is off.



Yes, this site is a great resource--not only the discussions but the articles and the books for sale. There are other forums like this, but the level of expertise is not as high and the level of attitude is higher. The pros who contribute to this forum are not only highly knowledgeable and experienced, but also patient, tolerant and eager to help.

judyk

thank you

Hi Hap_Hazzard,

The picture is exactly the vent I have. I'll try turning it upside down. Thank you once again.

I wish any one of you were in charge of my building!



Judy

Rod

Radiator Problems

Hi Judy - Just to sum up what we have so far. There is no such thing as "residual heat" involved with your radiator. As Gerry Gill, who is a very experienced steam pro, pointed out you need a new intake valve. With a functioning intake valve that closes properly, no steam would get into the radiator. No steam in the radiator = No heat!  

As it has also been pointed your radiator vent isn't functioning properly and is letting air escape the radiator.  If the radiator is filled with air, steam can't enter the radiator till the air is removed (vented). No steam in the radiator = No heat!



Try turning the vent upside down for now and then make sure the management installs a new intake valve and a new radiator vent before the next heating season. It much better to have work like this done in the during the summer months as things aren't as hectic for the heating pros in the summer season.

Have them replace the Vent-Rite #1 with another of the same make and type. Vent-Rite #1s are very good radiator vents. The vent is closed when it is in the number "1" position on the dial.  Radiator vents don't last for ever and need to be replaced periodically.



Since this is a one pipe steam radiator, make sure you open the intake valve fully when you need heat otherwise the steam entering the radiator and the condensate (water) leaving the radiator will collide and cause noise/ heat problems.



I've attached a diagram of a "bullet style" radiator vent. This is a non adujustable one though the mechanism is basically the same as the adjustable vent..  Normally the vent is open but when the steam reaches it, the alcohol/water solution in the float boils and the resulting gas bulge out the diaphragm. This raises the float and needle which closes the orifice hole and this stops steam from escaping the radiator. When you turn the vent upside down, gravity drops the float and needle into the orifice which closes the vent.

- Rod

kbarb

vent tongue

Hmm, the thread is almost a year old . . . see if anyone's still here.



I found the post because of the nice graphic of the vent's internals.



I think I understand how the vent works now, but . . 

What is the purpose of the tongue . . . just to transfer heat into the vent ?



Thanks

Kent

Rod

Vent Tongue

Hi- The purpose of the "Tongue" is to help water drain from the vent.

jumper

in the meantime

Until the problem is solved try covering the radiator. If you're not paying for the fuel too hot is better than not warm enough.



Also the fact that the problem started without anything happening in your apartment suggests that the problem is outside your space.

kbarb

heating graphics ?

Rod,



Where are you getting all those cool graphics - the air vent diagram and so on.

Did you create those ?

It'd be great if I could bookmark them for future reference.



Thanks,



Kent

Rod

Graphics

Hi Kent-  I usually find the graphics in old steam books and then modify them as needed to help answer the question that was asked. I'm a firm believe in a picture is worth a thousand words.

- Rod