Triangle Tube Trimax

adambuild

Hi Wallies, has anyone used the new Triangle Tube boiler with the Trimax control? Would you mind giving some feedback?



Thanks, Adam

Tim McElwain

Adam, I am not an installer but

do training on these systems. I am presently contacting the local rep here in New England for TT to look into information about this system (Trimax Control System). When I get some information I will post it.

bob eck

TT Trimax

What did you want to know about this new control?

Brian_19

Trimax

I installed a Trimax 110 about three week back. Much better than old control no codes plain text for setting up parameters. Can control two zone pumps and DHW with no need for external relays plus each zone can have its own reset curve.

 Only gripe with new control would be the text on control display is very small in standby mode.

adambuild

Thanks!

Thank you all for the responses! Beautiful job Brian! Correct me if I'm wrong, but with the new control I can have a 160* zone for copper bb and another 120* zone for radiant without a mixing valve? I'd just need two circs?

Mark Eatherton

I doubt it...

It might be able to receive calls from different temperature zones, but unless it has some means of mixing onboard, you will still need to protect the low temp calls from a simultaneous high temp call.



There are only so many ways to do the same thing, and it requires the use of certain devices (mixing) to protect low temp calls during a high temp call.



If all calls are low temp (+/- 10 - 15 degrees F) then you can probably get by without additional mix protection. Same for 2 high temp calls.



But, again, I know nothing about this particular appliance. Just relaying my experience with other similar products. Kudos to TT for finally getting a control out with more than 2 adjustable parameters.



ME

Jean-David Beyer

it requires the use of certain devices (mixing) to protect low temp calls during a high temp call.

Actually, in a situation like mine, the U-control in my W-M Ultra 3 manages all this.



It has three levels of priority, and when the indirect calls for heat, the boiler supplies it at 175F (default is 190F), and turns off the boiler circulator and the low temperature circulator.



When the baseboard zone calls for heat, the boiler circulator and the zone circulator turn on and the boiler supplies up to 135F.



When the radiant zone calls for heat, the boiler circulator and the other zone circulator turn on and the boiler supplies up to 120F. If the baseboard zone is calling for heat at this point, its circulator turns on (or stays on) and that zone is supplied with what the radiant is getting, so it gets some heat, but not as much as it might want. I do have an aquastat on the pipe supplying the radiant zone in case something goes wrong and too hot water is going to the radiant zone. This aquastat cuts off the boiler. I do not know if the circulators continue to run when this happens. I ought to try it.



This works fine for me with no mixing valves. I am still saving up for a mixing valve at the output of my indirect so I can run it at 140F instead of 125F.

Mark Eatherton

What if....

JD, what if the higher temperature zone is calling for heat, and a low temp call chimes in. Does the boiler maintain the higher set point, or does it defer to the lower radiant set point? I can see where your first scenario would cause discomfort issues at design conditions. Unless of course your finned tube convectors are REALLY oversized.



Generally speaking, it would not be a good idea to do that.



ME

scott markle_2

2 paramiters ?

Not sure what you mean by this mark. If my memory serves me the original TT control (mcba)has a lot more than 2 paramiters, off the top o my head there is DHW, high and low limits, differentials, 0-10 v external option, WWSD, boost, parrellel shift contact, etc. also relays for heating and DHW.



The multiple reset curve thing is incorporated on the new lochinvar boilers as well, without the optional mixmoter control I don't see how this would be very useful. The only use that I see would be to use a two stage thermostat and use it to drop or boost the reset according to indoor demands (deviation from set point) but the parrellel shift contact accomplishes the bascisly the same thing so I'm not real sure what utity this offers unless it can be used in cojunction with a mixing device.

scott markle_2

Zone of lowest demand calls the shots?

Jean,



Are you sure about this? Seems odd. I could see having a "dumb" fixed temperture mix on the radiant that would set a high limit when the high temperture curve was calling, and when the radient zone alone was calling it could operate bellow the setting of the mix valve. It makes no sence to me that if both zones (curves) were on that the lower one would have priority. This goes against the well honed zone of greatest demand aproach that has been perfected in Tekmar systems. Ultimately the best designed systems IMHO either have sepeperate mixing for divergent needs or use flow modulation (trv's) or predictive syncronized cycling (tekmar). You want to keep as many zones going at the same time as possible, so without seperate "smart" mixing for each curve the use of the seperate curves is going to be very limited. I other words a well designed system should not see a lot of single zone operation and thus this multiple curve business seems a moot point unless its directing mix devices.

Jean-David Beyer

what if the higher temperature zone is calling for heat

Ignoring the indirect, that runs at the highest priority and shuts off the boiler circulator preventing heat from going to the heating zones...



The low temperature (radiant) zone runs at middle priority and the higher temperature (baseboard) zone runs at the lowest priority.



If the higher temperature zone is calling for heat and the lower temperature zone calls for heat, the lower temperature zone's priority wins the priority competition, and the boiler changes its reset curve to the middle priority curve that is the lower temperature curve. The boiler circulator continues to run. The low temperature circulator switches on and the high temperature zone circulator continues to run. Thus, the output temperature will be the lowest temperature reset curve, and the high temperature zone had two possibilities when the system was installed. One possibility, that would have been a little more complex (needing an additional relay) would have been to turn off the circulator to the higher temperature zone (and it would get nothing). The other possibility, the one we used, was to let the high temperature zone circulator to continue to run. While it would not be getting its desired temperature, it would get something.



The controller has many other options I have ignored here. There is a post purge (default 30 seconds) where the boiler stops firing and the residual heat in the boiler continues to flow so the heat in the uninsulated heat exchanger goes to the load. Another thing is that if a high priority is running and a lower priority input asks for heat, the high priority curve will run up to 30 minutes (program adjustable), and then let the lower priority load get control for a while (15 minutes by default). So everyone get heat after a while even if one of them demands heat all the time (that does not happen, but it almost does when the radiant runs for 12 hours or so. The baseboard zone would have to wait 12 hours to get heat if the radiant zone could not be interrupted. It is a fascinating controller.  And programming it is easy: all the messages are in plain english, no secret codes to figure out. The only secret is how to get it into the mode where you can programming menus, and the secret is in plain sight in the Installation manual for anyone who can read. Unfortunatley, I have run into several technicians who cannot read.

Jean-David Beyer

Unless of course your finned tube convectors are REALLY oversized.

They are REALLY oversized. I had a 3 foot piece of fin tube in each of two rooms and they were always cold with my old boiler. Each room needs 3250 BTU/hour when it is 14F below design temperature. I wanted to run low temperature water to get maximum condensing. If I put 180F water in there, perhaps 5 feet of fin tube would be enough in each room. I had room for 14 feet in each room, so I put that much in. I calculate that 135F in there would take me down to 8F below design temperature.



Basically I have about triple the size baseboard I need, if my heat load calculations are correct (some doubt here). In practice, over the last three winters (if you can call what I got here in New Jersey this year to be winter), I have always gotten enough heat up there, and the zone runs about 3 hours in the morning and sometimes a little in late afternoon.

Mark Eatherton

It has been a LONG LONG time ago for me Scott...

And my memory is not getting any better with age, but I remember only being able to adjust 2 parameters. As I remember, you could adjust the highest water temperature, and the lowest water temperature for space heating applications. The OD temperature settings (hi and low) were fixed, and not adjustable.



It has been over 10 years ago since my last TT install, and I complained heavily to my reps and anyone else willing to listen, so it is entirely possible that the later versions of the Honeywell control were released for contractor manipulation.



Sorry for the cornfusion.



ME

Jean-David Beyer

Are you sure about this?

I am sure about what I have, and the results I get. But that probably does not answer your question.



In particular, I have no mixing valves.



"It makes no sense to me that if both zones (curves) were on that the lower one would have priority."



Well, the lower temperature zone has more priority than the higher temperature zone. So if the lower temperature zone wants heat, it will get it, using the reset curve set up for it. By higher temperature, and lower temperature, I mean the temperature of the supply water. The load temperatures are the same. The thermostat in each zone is set at 69F. But does not really matter much.



If the higher temperature zone was asking for heat at the same time, its circulator would run, getting water whose temperature was determined by the higher priority, lower temperature, reset curve. Better than nothing.



"This goes against the well honed zone of greatest demand approach that has been perfected in Tekmar systems."



The zone with the greatest demand is the middle priority zone, the radiant slab zone, that wants 24,000 BTU/hour when it is 0F outside. The zone with less, the baseboard zone, wants 6500 BTU/hour when it is 0F outside. That is low demand. So low the boiler will not modulate down there anyway.



"You want to keep as many zones going at the same time as possible, so

without seperate "smart" mixing for each curve the use of the seperate

curves is going to be very limited."



I did the best I could do with what I have. The zones are the size they are. The house was built 60 years ago. The slab is what it is. The piping upstairs is what it is too. I would need to rip out floors and walls to change any of that. Aside from the cost of further changes, the additional complexity would buy me very little. Perhaps a little less cycling when only the baseboard was running in warm weather.



In the past, the whole house was a single zone. The only way to get the upstairs warm was to dramatically overheat the downstairs. So I had it split into two zones: upstairs and downstairs. And their load is very different. But sometimes one needs heat, and sometimes the other does, and sometimes they both do. So sometimes one zone runs, and sometimes both do. The only way to use mixing valves that makes sense to me would be to use motorized ones operated by proportional thermostats. This would seem to require always running the boiler at a higher temperature than actually needed in order to provide the "working space" for the mixing valves to operate. This seems to violate the spirit of running a mod-con in the first place.

CMadatMe

Temp Migration

Mark is completely on spot. The boiler will control 2 heating curves but you will bleed the higher curve into the lower curve when both zones call. They should have taken it a step further and incoporated communication to a motorized mixing valve so you could do true multiple heating circuits.



The control is really focused towards the installer who wants to be able to set up a curve with a choice of application. in the curve selection you can choose a low mass radiant, high mass radiant, cast iron bb, fin tube board, radiators or fan coils. You can still enter the control using the old MCBA code to set parameters for fine tuning and your own curve.



The new control also now allows to cascade without a needed additional control. Some other changes in the boler itself are an all 439 stainless hx and polypropylene condensate pan and flue.

TonyS

Installed one a couple of weeks ago

Very easy to set up, Intuitive progression through the setup.

It has a quick setup with a few predetermined heating curves. It has relays for two zone pumps and a dhw pump, also a aux pump relay that runs whenever one of the other three run. I think they should have gone a little further and allowed the aux pump to shut down on a call from dhw, as it is now, you can run a two zone system with a dhw pump without any extra relays...if you are pumping through the exchanger.

If you are using two zones and the aux pump as the boiler pump on a primary secondary, there is no way to turn off the boiler pump on a call from the dhw tank that is tied into the boiler loop, not the primary.

Most of my jobs are gravity conversion so I dont need primary secondary and this now saves me the cost of an additional relay on a two zone system.

The wiring block is much improved, full terminal blocks, each over top of its own connector along the front bottom edge.

This is another great improvement to this boiler.

SWEI

Prestige Solo parameters

I count 22:



DHW Setting

DHW Application Selection

CH Application Selection

CH Maximum Boiler Operating Setpoint

CH Minimum Boiler Operating Setpoint

CH Reset Curve Coldest Day

CH Reset Curve Warmest Day

Frost Protection Setpoint

CH Block Temperature Setting

Boost Feature Setting

Parallel Shift Value

Setpoint Value Addition for DHW

CH Circulator Post Pump Time Period

DHW Circulator Post Pump Time Period

DHW On Differential

DHW Off Differential

CH Call Blocking Time

DHW Call Blocking Time

DHW to CH Call Blocking Time

DHW Priority Timeout

CH Operating Signal Selection

DHW Operating Signal Selection

TonyS

Parameter

access was only given after factory training . Even with the first generation MCBA control there were over 20 parameters.

This is year number eight for the Prestige, so lets not make time go faster than it already is Mark lol.

Other nice features on the control are blocking time. This has always been available but would only reset after a satisfied call for heat(kind of stupid) Now blocking time resets on high limit!

Boost has been eliminated( though many disagree, I thought it had its place)

It is a pretty slick control, The old mcba was like DOS commands to an old 286 computer and the new control is like Windows. Big difference.

If you get a chance, take their 2 day school. Great people and very informative and they feed you well. I was in NJ a few weeks ago at the factory just for the Trimax control and the class was great because we didnt have to spend an entire day on parameters and codes. More time available for piping details and cascades ect.

SWEI

TT training

Offered at TM Sales in Arvada pretty regularly.  They give you a sweetheart deal on extended warranties for residential jobs once you attend.

tim smith

Re: Trimax etc

I discussed the 3 way option in december with them. I really think it would not have been hard to incorporate addl. curve and 3 terminals on board for mix valve. This was a bummer for me with Lochinvar and still a bummer with Trimax. I love Triangle boilers but just wish all the mfrs would take that little leap forward and incorporate this function. Really would be a saver over adding separate control.

SWEI

adding terminals

Would not be trivial given that the control hardware comes from Honeywell and is not unique to TT as I understand it.



I'll dig into their ModBus messaging one of these days - should allow us to build a really nice advanced multi-boiler multi-temperature package.

CMadatMe

Control

The control is Honeywell Europe not US. The only condensing boiler I know that runs a mixing valve low temp circuit is a Viessmann Vitodens.

wrxz24

Perfect timing:)

my plan is to replace my CI boiler with this exact boiler because of the 2 reset curves because I have both bb and radiant heat.  I guess my question is this...let's say I set my mixing valves to 110deg  for protection but on days when just the radiant zones call for heat and the floors only need 90 degree water within the high mass curve, does that have any effect on the mixing valve setting?? Thanks in advance

TonyS

Nope

When your target temp is less than your mixing valve , the mixing valve opens its hot side and closes its cold side and that's all it can do. The curve will drop just like the mixing valve isn't there.

wrxz24

Great.

Thanks for the help.

NYplumber

N/C

You can use a n/c relay to cut power when dhw sends a signal.



Let me know if you try it.

STUPID_FLANDERS1

Shutting off Aux Boiler Pump

You mentioned using a NC relay to shut off an AUX loop pump when there is a call for DHW.  Can you elaborate on this.  I have a customer that is running into this.  Her installer thankfully installed a bridle so the pump just cycles through that when the unit goes into a call for DHW, but I have another customer with no briddle and causing the system pump to dead-head into the unit's valve.  Need to find a quick fix to get that aux pump to shut down when there is a call for DHW.  Thanks!

TonyS

NC relay

Run the wire from your aux terminal through a 120 volt nc relay on its way to the aux pump. Then use the wire feeding the dhw pump to energize the relay coil when the dhw pump turns on. This will flip the relay and cut power going to the aux.

CFH

Outdoor reset sensor not calibrated

I just installed a Trimax Solo 110. When  the outdoor reset was connected the boiler the display showed the outdoor temperature 10 degrees higher than the actual temperature. The resistance of the 10 k thermistor at the boiler connection was correct for the outdoor temperature. The service rep from triangle tube told me it was a software problem. He solution was to raise the reset curve 10 degrees. Whenever the customer looks at the display he see the wrong outdoor temperature. The boiler is advertised to control 4 pumps. 1 pump is dedicated to the primary pump. 2 other pumps can be used for heating with separate outdoor reset curves. You can only use the 4 pump for DHW even if you disable priority.

CFH

Temperature priority trimax sol 110

The Trimax I just put in gave priority to the higher temperature. I had baseboard on CH1 and radiant on CH2. When both called for heat the target temperature was the higher temperature, I installed it 3/9/14