1940's Steam System - Oil to Gas Conversion -- Thinking of Going to Forced Air

EKDatDKE

Hi everyone,



I have watched the site for a long time, but it has been a while since I have posted. I am not a steam expert, but my wife and I love our steam heat, but with the oil prices we are going to finally switch over to natural gas from oil. We have a oil boiler that was an old coal fired system right now and we have are looking at one of two options.



1) We will switch from our our old oil steam boiler to a new natural gas steam boiler. Replace all the pipes with copper. Remove the old boiler. Run a gas line from outside the house (the house already has natural gas for the hot water heater). Cannon would be the brand for the new boiler replacement.



2) We will get a new forced air high eff system. We already have duct work in the house for the central A/C. We live in NJ so cold climate is a factor. We would also get a new A/C which is good because our system is from 1986! Here Goodman would be the system. We would have to get heat tape on the condensing pipe that would run into our basement to our sump. The attic is unconditioned.



Issues we have. If we replace the boiler downstairs we need to have the boiler and the pipes abated because they are asbestos before I can replace it. This has to be done eventually anyways, but sort of sucks. The boiler just has it inside, not covering it. Also the oil tank would have to be removed. We leave .625 of a tank, and I just bought a stainless steel ROTH 18 months ago when our old tank sprung a tiny leak. Terrible timing. I used almost zero oil this winter. Also we would have to find new insulation for all the piping and the system starting making some knocking noises this year, it is possible that the vents need to replaced and also the valves maybe just repacked and cleaned to make sure no water is trapped in there. Just don't want to get stuck with an unbalanced, noisy system.



If we got with the new forced air system, we would hope to leave our basement untouched if code allows and then deal with it at a later date. We are in the process of refinishing our basement after Hurricane Irene so leaving stuff down there wouldn't be a huge deal.



The costs for both one and two are the same. As in I put in what was included. I would have to get a new chimney liner which is an additional cost regardless although I have thought of getting a power venting hot water heater so I can avoid the cost of the liner. I have a working wood fireplace that I love.



Any thoughts. I love the steam, but it is a lot work. Am I taking the easy way out.



- Eric

kcopp

Woha...

a lot there that does not add up. Who said you had to take all the asbestos off? Who said that by going to gas you had to take out steel piping and go to copper...which is a NO-NO to start? Never heard of Cannon boilers....

 Have you got a GOOD steam installer.... one that measured the radiators, knows steam  and has done many before? From what you have said prob not....

LarryC

Please do not give up the steam system.

"1) We will switch from our our old oil steam boiler to a new natural gas steam boiler. Replace all the pipes with copper. Remove the old boiler. Run a gas line from outside the house (the house already has natural gas for the hot water heater). Cannon would be the brand for the new boiler replacement."



Why are you replacing all of the pipes with copper?  Are you talking about the steam lines?  It is not recommended to pipe steam lines in copper.  The coefficient of thermal expansion for copper and steel are much different.  When the piping heats up, the greater expansion of copper could put alot of stress on the boiler piping and lead to significant mechanical problems.



"Issues we have. If we replace the boiler downstairs we need to have the boiler and the pipes abated because they are asbestos before I can replace it."

I don not know the law about asbestos abatement requirements, but perhaps they can just seal the asbestos insulation without removing it. If the sealing could be done, then I ASSUME the only asbestos that would have to be removed is the insulation up to the point where the new boiler mates with the existing steam piping.

It may make sense to get a steam pro in there to determine if there are any other issues that need to be fixed when the boiler is replaced.



Have you done significant upgrades to the building as far as insulation, new windows, house wrap, and other energy conservation activities?  Having a heatloss calculation performed could show that the existing system is much to large.  Perhaps the amount of radiation can be downsized and therefore a smaller boiler be installed.  Right sizing the boiler will also reduce your ongoing energy costs.



Good luck on the upgrades.

EKDatDKE

Response

Thank you so much for your post. To respond, our HVAC contractor is someone who has done a lot of work in our office and also has some great recommendations from friends. He has definitely replaced baseboard, but in terms of steam I can't say his experience. This was just a preliminary walk through and we were going to talk more in depth next week. He did measure all the radiators and he recommended a crown boiler, I don't know why I said canyon before.



In terms of removing the wrap. He recommended that if I was going to just remove 3-5 feet above the boiler, I should just get it all abated. Also I know there is some asbestos in the boiler, which while I am not concerned about the small exposure, if i am thinking of having someone come in, better to do it all and get it over with.



For the house, we put in all new energy star windows last year, but there is DEFINITELY some insulation issues in storage in crawl spaces and such that we need to address.



The water return pipe has a small leak in it which is why he wanted to replace the pipes in copper. There is a chemical engineer down the street that did his baseboard in copper so didn't think twice about it, until I just realized I have steam.



Any more help please. Should I do the steam system if I don't have someone in the area that I can definitely trust in steam.



I am in NE New Jersey.

kcopp

Steam heat.....

is definately not baseboard heat. There are so many ways to screw up if you don't know what to look out for. Try "Find a Contractor " at the top of the page....

EKDatDKE

Thank You

Thanks KCopp. Definitely understood. I have learned a lot about steam over the past 2 years. Just found my main vent taking down parts of my ceiling this past weekend. I guess time is not of the essence, but with a hole in my water return I guess I will have to do something by winter.



Anyone you recommend from Northern NJ. I am going to look at find a contractor now.



So I assume if I can find a good steam guy then stay with it.

kcopp

there is ...

someone in Orange, NJ... is that close?

EKDatDKE

Orange

K- Orange is about 30 minutes from me which shouldn't be bad. Some of the other guys I were finding were in NYC which is sort of a haul to me or in upstate, NY. I love steam heat so this is pretty cool. I appreciate the help!!

kcopp

gateway p&htg....

they are here on the wall at times....

Jamie Hall

A few thoughts...

Asbestos.  It terrifies a lot of people.  It's nothing to be scared of, properly treated.  I would recommend that if the pipe insulation is asbestos, that it be encapsulated; this isn't that hard to do and is completely satisfactory -- and shouldn't be all that expensive (it is a relatively simple do it yourself project).  Removing the old boiler will automatically abate the asbestos in the old boiler.  My understanding is that generally speaking asbestos need not be abated unless it is disturbed, or subject to disturbance, and if it is encapsulated it is OK.  You should check your local code on that, though, if you are concerned.  I would note, however, that if your local code folks get their knickers in a knot, you may wind up in a situation where they require you to abate it all whichever option you take (even no action in the basement at all) -- so it is not a factor in choosing option 1 or 2.



That leaking wet return can be replaced in copper, if that's what your man knows how to do.  Steam lines, however, and dry returns cannot be done in copper satisfactorily.  On the other hand, there's no reason to touch them (other than checking for sagging pipes -- which may be where some of the knocking you mentioned comes from.  That's easily fixed).



I'm sure the contractor you have mentioned is well qualified -- for hot water and hot air.  That does not mean he knows anything about, nor that he can work on steam.  His suggestion of tearing out the old pipes and replacing with copper, however, makes it unlikely that he has any idea what he is doing with steam.  Do give Gateway a shot; from what I've seen here on the wall it looks as though they could do the job...



And last... you love your steam system.  It needn't be a lot of work.  I can almost guarantee that you would NOT love hot air...

EKDatDKE

Thank You

K- going to give these guys a call tomorrow.



I went to their website, wow, will they come to do a residential property?



Anyways, thanks again for all your help guys. Steam is a lost art, that is why you don't see it anymore.



- Eric

EKDatDKE

Jamie

Thanks for the advice. I really am not too afraid of absestos either, just more unaware of what is going on inside of the boiler. The boiler is a beast, they don't make them like that anymore. If it wasn't for the oil prices going up so much, we really would not have considered removing it.



Now for the contractor. Like I said he gets great recommendations from people I trust, but steam may not be his gig. The reason why he wanted to replace the pipes in copper is because the return has sprunk a tiny leak. Maybe a cup of water a day...this though is forcing me to add more water to the boiler this winter than I would like.



The asbestos is in a basement that is being finished, but I have no problem with it. I would definitely encapsulate it if I could. I plan on being here for a long time.



I am going to give Gateway a call tomorrow! Unfortunately they don't service my county on their website, but I am one county north so any other recommendations are greatly appreciated. I will ask them anyways!! I am only 30 minutes away from their NJ office.



- Eric