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How much time are you

Tim McElwain
Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,612
spending on annual maintenance on Mod/Con Boilers? What I am asking is according to required annual cleaning and maintenance on these units what kind of time is it taking you?



I know we do not talk price here so I am not looking for a number, do you charge your normal hourly rate for these cleanings or are you offering some kind of maintenance contract?

Comments

  • Plumdog_2
    Plumdog_2 Member Posts: 873
    "Anual" Cleaning for mod-cons

    We generally allow 3 hours for a cleaning and maintenance. But most of these boilers are orphaned by the original installer, and neglected by the homeowner, most of whom are unaware that regular maintenance is required. I have found the majority of these set up without the OD reset control, and without the Domestic Hot Water piped and controlled as per manufacturers instructions. So they pull out the old boiler and hang the new one, set it at 180 and leave town. Even some new construction installs are not utilizing the features built into the boiler. So besides the cleaning and tune-up, there is plenty of opportunity for additional pipe and control work I cleaned one Thursday that was untouched in 7 years! Took four hours, and had to replace a portion of the vent pipe. So I agree with you Tim, the guys doing the installs are not up to speed. 
  • Plumdog_2
    Plumdog_2 Member Posts: 873
    kind of sad

    I can't even SPELL annual. See what I mean?
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    I am a homeowner, not a professional.

    I have experience with two heating contractors. I have a W-M Ultra 3.



    The first was the one that installed my mod-con. His company offered a maintenance contract for a ridiculously low price -- a 2-digit number. When the maintenance guy came out, he asked if it was oil or gas. Really! I could tell that, even if I did not know, by the gas pipe going into the boiler. It had a gas valve to turn the gas on and off, and that little T that traps the water and particles so they would not go into the boiler.



    He did not come with the gasket kit, did not have a spare igniter (that comes with the kit), did not have a combustion analyzer, would not test the pressure relief valve, would not check the condensate trap, ... . He looked at the fire through the inspection port (big deal! he did not even look at the manual to see what he was looking for). He did not have a torque wrench to put the bolts back on the aluminum heat exchanger. I read him some of the manual and he said he did not have time for that, that he was allowed only 15 minutes for a maintenance call. Well, maybe he could change the nozzle and filter in an oil burner that fast, but that is about it. One reason that outfit is my former contractor.



    The other contractor has come both times with a gasket kit, a new igniter, always takes everything apart as specified by the manual, cleans the fire side of the heat exchanger, examines the condensate trap and takes a sample for analysis in the lab (looks for aluminum, among other things), and after my insistence, tests combustion with digital analyzer. He also measures the concentration of the Sentinel X-100 in the water. He does not measure the pH, but I do. The technician comes with a helper that speeds things up a little. For the routine maintenance, they take about an hour and a half. He will not test the pressure relief valve either. He also does not have a torque wrench, but I lend him mine, and he is willing to use it.



    I cannot understand why no one will test a pressure relief valve, or a P/T valve on the indirect. It should take far less than a minute. If it fails, it is not that big a deal to replace one. I even bought a spare p.r.v. for my boiler because by Murphy's law, the one in there will quit on New Years eve. One techie said if you test one, it will fail. But it seems to me that would happen only if you did not test it regularly. I sure would want to know if one of those were not working correctly before the explosion came.
  • Rod
    Rod Posts: 2,067
    Reluctance to Test Pressure Relief Valve

    Hi - I have a steam boiler and have also run across the reluctance by the tech to test the pressure relief valve. As I understand it, if you test the pressure relief valve, there is a strong possibility that a piece of dirt /rust will get struck on the valve seat which then causes the valve to leak. The homeowner when told of the leak thinks "Well, it didn't leak before you touched it!" and blames the tech for the leak.

          At this point it is a "no win" situation for the tech.  He either replaces the valve and eats the cost (materials & labor) while still having the homeowner thinks he's incompetent as he "caused" the leak in the first place OR he replaces the leaking valve and charges the homowner which really ticks off the homeowner as " The tech caused the leak as it wasn't leaking before he touched it and NOW he wants me to pay for it!"....."I'm never calling that outfit again!"  When you consider all this, you can easily understand the tech's reluctance.  Maybe the solution is to just insist the pressure relief valve is replaced biannually or in some specific time period.

    - Rod
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    PRV testing risk

    Sounds like something that should be explicitly disclaimed in the maintenance agreement.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 6,506
    relief valve testing

    In response to JDB, I agree with the others.  If the boiler supply and return have shut offs, and can be isolated, no big deal.  If they're not, especially in a house with big radiators, you're looking at some drain down, refill, and bleed. And probably a repeat call to bleed them again. Some of the house are pig stye's, and you have to go into every room and move furniture, take of rad covers, & bleed them.  I go with SWEI's advice and tell them I'm going to check it, and if it fails, this is what it's going to cost to replace it (based on the system).  It's also a good time to add some of the valves they're going to need (or should have) for servicing.

    I would like to know what happens, legal wise, when a valve fails closed.  Who really is to blame.  Like most everything else, if it worked when you checked it, then failed the next day, who gets the blame.  And how do you really check it? Close off the expansion tank, run the pressure up until it blows?  And how do you prove you checked it? Video tape? Seems ambiguous at best.  I remember, when taking an electrical class, the instructor said, (and I'm paraphasing) "A circuit breaker is UL tested to only trip once.  If it trips it must be replaced".  Now who does that :)
    steve
  • hotpipe
    hotpipe Member Posts: 24
    many manufactures require bi-annual test

    One large customer with maybe 50 properties requires us to test the relief valves on each system and to document it along with each service and combustion analysis. Every year we bring a large number of relief valves and end up changing about 75% of em. But most of the systems are easily isolated and purged. Go through a lot of hivents also. :)
    Don't blame me, I voted for the old war hero and the business expert!!!!
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    boiler supply and return have shut offs

    My boiler supply and return have shutoffs. So does the makeup water supply before the anti-backflow valve and after the pressure reducing valve. Also, the expansion tank has a shutoff valve. As do the supply and return from the boiler to the indirect hot water heater. Easier to put those valves in before something needs changing. Oh! the circulators have valves too.



    To replace the boiler pressure relief valve, all that is needed is to turn off the supply and return to the boiler and the makeup water. You could also turn off the indirect supply and return, but since they are lower, this is probably unnecessary. For mine, you would have to unscrew the pipe that would dribble to the floor from the elbow pointing down. Then unscrew the short horizontal pipe into the relief valve. I had that elbow be a screw type instead of soldered because otherwise it would be too hard to replace the valve without cutting and soldering each time. Planning ahead, though it cost more.



    They also rerouted the pipe to the floor because it dumped on the floor in an inaccessable area behind the boiler, so you would not even want to test that valve. I guess I will check mine each summer when it only heats hot water once in a while, so if I screw it up, I will not be in a hurry. I do not know if it is code to have threaded fittings there, because I could screw a ball valve on the end and close it, I suppose, or just screw a plug in. I am not crazy enough to do that. I do think about screwing a shorter pipe so it ends a inch or two higher than the rim of a bucket though, so if I open the valve and it does not close because of dirt, I can flush it longer and clean the valve seat. I did that on my old water heater, because it did not always stop on the very first try.



    The relief valve should unscrew pretty easily. They used teflon tape and dope for it. Then, even if they did not bring a relief valve for my boiler, they could put in the spare I bought for just such an emergency. The tech one time said they did not bring spare relief valves because there were too many different ones. I can accept that. But even if they changed the relief valve every year, that is probably cheaper than a new boiler, or a new house. I know we do not discuss price, but a relief valve is cheaper than 1/4 hour of tech labor cost to me -- the homeowner.
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    explicitly disclaimed

    I disagree; the contract should say something about it though. In this case the contract should say who pays if the valve fails the test. For example, I negotiated with my new contractor that he would follow the W-M Ultra 3 instruction manual. He put that in writing in the contract.



    Now the manual says he must test it each year, and have an expert remove and examine it every three years. The contract does not say who would pay for it if it failed. It probably should say that; I just assumed it would be me. If the contractor feels like eating the cost, that is OK with me. (He eats the cost of the W-M gasket kit and the ignitor.) If he bills me extra, that is OK with me too. This so there is no misunderstanding. Frankly, I would have no trouble replacing the valve every three years instead of removing it, examining it, and replacing it. The labor is about the same as if you skipped the examining it and just put a new one in. In my limited experience, those valves last a long time provided they are not leaking because of defective expansion tank, pressure reducing valve, or a dim homeowner who did not notice it leaking.
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
    And how do you really check it?

    I am not a professional, so this is not advice.



    What I have done in the past is lift the handle all the way and let quite a bit of water out. 1/4 bucket, perhaps. Then I let the spring inside close it. I then wait until it stops dripping in a reasonable time. If it does those things, I pronounce it OK.



    First of all, I can open the valve from the outside, so it is not closed off with deposits. Second, the valve seat must be pretty clean or it would not shut off completely. Failing either of these tests is grounds for replacement.



    In the past, with my old electric hot water heater, I would sometimes have to run this test several times. The valve always opened OK, but sometimes it would not quite shut off. Repeating the process once or twice, would fix the grit on the valve seat. If this happened, I would close the valve more slowly so the water rushing through would have greater chance of cleaning the valve seat. In 30 years, I think I had to replace the valve once.
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,540
    Testing relief valves?

    The vast majority won't reseat! Better off just changing if you are concerned about it
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    testing, disclaimers

    Opening and closing the valve only proves that it opens, not that it opens on high pressure.



    Your description is more concise - by disclaim, I meant disclaim liability for the valve if it should prove bad.  Informed consent is the standard for agreements, and courts tend to agree.
  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,612
    I tried asking

    this question again in another posting. I was not really trying to determine if relief valves get tested or not.



    I have a very important reason for asking this question.
This discussion has been closed.