Has our system been analyzed correctly?

HoyteKing

It's a 588

I measured it and came up with 40 1/4 inches. Looking closely at the table in the posted photo, I saw that the 588 model is very lightly marked.



It is running right now and toasty warm in the boiler room.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

As an FYI...

the traps on the system are Illinois 8G F and T traps.   Been there and seen them.

Dave in QCA

I Stand Corrected

It has been a while since I saw the video clips, but from those, I thought they looked like Armstrong inverted buckets.  Sorry!

In words of the great Gilda Radner, "NEVER MIND"    ;-)



Thanks, Dave B

HoyteKing

3 views of the tops of the traps

I took these and used this info when writing my description. 

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

You're not the only one that was fooled....

they sure do look like buckets.  Was just in a building full of them with the famous Steam heating guru Denny Malloy...found one installed upside down!

Rod

Think Towards the Future

    As Dave in QCA mentioned floor space isn’t applicable.  What you are trying to do is to match the boiler size to the total EDR of the installed radiators.  (all the radiators in your building)   If you were installing a new steam system in the building for the first time you would have to calculate the size of radiator necessary to heat each room. Since the radiators are already installed, we can only match the EDR of the already installed radiators.  



   We’re making the assumption here that the “Deadmen” knew what they were doing when they installed the steam system “way back when” and had sized the radiators properly. (On Heating Help you will see the term “the Deadmen” mentioned a lot as it refers to the original installers who had a very good grasp of steam heating and who were experts at their trade.



     To figure out the EDR for your building you would need to calculate the EDR for each radiator and then add all the EDRs together. (See attached Boiler Sizing Charts)  This total sum we will call “A”.  If you look at the attached spec. sheet for your boiler (attached below) at the figure marked “B”. This is the amount of EDR produced by your boiler. Ideally “A” and “B” are a close match.  If “B” is much greater than “A” then your boiler is oversized.



Thinking ahead towards replacement- From looking at the manuals, we can see that  present boiler is getting pretty old and as how well it has been maintained, is questionable,  the future life expectancy is unknown. It may last a few more years or need to be replaced next winter. I think it would be very good idea to now consider with what you are going to replace the present boiler.

The advantage to this is:

1. Having a contingency plan available, the replacement will be well thought out ahead of time (haste makes waste) and can be done quickly so that the system downtime will be minimal. (An important point if the weather is freezing and the water pipes are in danger)

2. Having a future plan, you can make sure that any changes you make now to the present system are designed to be incorporated in the future system. That means that money you invest now isn’t thrown out with the old boiler when you do a change over.



   For a boiler replacement I would definitely consider going to a dual boiler system as that means you can use just a single boiler in the spring and fall to provide heating for your building and then bring the other boiler on line when the weather gets cold. The boilers can be rotated occasionally so that the total operational time on each boiler remains about the same.  Another benefit of having two boilers is that if you have a service problem with one of the boilers you still have the another boiler to provide partial heat to the condos.

   Reading Dave Bunnell’s reply identifying your traps and seeing his signature photo reminded me about the benefit  of using multiple boilers in a large system.  I might mention that I don’t know Dave personally and have never met him as my home is in Maine. However I have seen photos of boiler installations that he has done and from my engineering background,  judge them as top notch!   He is of the level of stream pro that you need to have a successful outcome on a large building such as yours. I’ve attached a photo of one of his dual steam boiler systems.  That brings up another point - I’ve noticed that most good steam pros, being proud of their work. keep photos of installations they have done and so you might want to ask to see photos of the installations that the people you are interviewing have done.  With “30 years experience”, one would think they should have all sorts of photos of their installations.

HoyteKing

calculations check

I am in the process of making calculations. Was wondering if someone would not mind checking if I did it right for the long radiator pictured. It is the "front room" radiator.



24 tubes divided by 4 sections = 6



I am not completely confident about whether I am doing it right. The table talks about both tubes and sections.

Dave in QCA

Your Math is Wrong

It looks like an American Radiator, Rococo pattern radiator.  I can't tell if your radiator is a 3 column for a 4 column type.  Look at the end section and see how many vertical tubes there are.  Then, it looks like in your scan of figuring, that the ht is 17.5".  Actually, it is probably 18".  The 3 column radiator that is 18" tall has 2.25 sq ft / section.  The 4 column model has 3 sq ft/section.  Decide which one you have.  Then multiply the number of sections by the sq ft / section and it will give you the total sq ft.  24 sections x 2.25 sq ft/section gives you 54 sq ft.   For the 4 column type, it would be 24 x 3 = 72 sq ft.    For clarification, the term, sq ft of steam radiation is the same thing as EDR.  Sometimes the terms are intermixed and become confusing. 

Clarification of radiator terminolgy.  This is a column type radiator. There are also large tube and small tube types as well, and a few others too.

The pieces of cast iron that are all joined together are called sections.  Each fin sticking up represents a section.  Even through the paint you can probably see the crack where the pieces are joined.  Column radiators are sized by how tall they are and how many columns in each section.  There can be as few as 1 column and as many as 4 columns in this model. 



Hope this helps.

HoyteKing

update and new question on another thread

Well, the heating sytem has been updated with RD sensors.

The results so far:

Hi all,

Larry, the boiler monitor installation consultant was here this weekend. He replaced one monitor, fixed the buzzing outlet in the boiler room, and noted that the external monitor is malfunctioning and needs to be replaced. He also set the boiler turn off temperature at 71°.

He will be back on Tuesday and will hear that my unit this 75° today and another is at 73.5°. I fear something wrong in the sensors.  The main unit shows an average of 70.9° between three monitors, with one not reporting.

In short, we're working on it still.

Placement was an issue (the advice on HeatingHelp was not followed http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/135378/To-use-or-not-use-the-temperature-sensor-on-the-return):

The consultant recommended the placement of the sensors away from heat source and outside drafts.They are located in  the same place in each apartment.The sensors are 2 by 4 inches and adhered with two 1/16 inch screws.They will not make large holes in the walls.

The sensors are not to be moved around.



My unit has not had severe problems with heat so far, more or less, which is good. When people suffer, they want something done. When people do not suffer, it is harder for them to want to do something. My unit does not have a sensor (we don't want tampering, after all).

I am posting a new question on another thread about geothermal systems being connected to a steam system later in the day.

Rod

The Fine Art of Chasing Your Tail

I gather that your condo’s steam system piping issues have never been addressed yet they have put in a new control system? If so, this is sort of like installing a new model cruise control in your car and ignoring that your V-8 engine is only running on 4 cylinders!

 As for combining geothermal with steam, installing a uranium hot water reactor next to the present steam boiler would make far more sense.

- Rod

HoyteKing

Happy for what I can get

Even a new control is better than the old mechanical timer with only two start/stop stops on it (standard practice is to put tons of stops on mechanical timers so the boiler won't run too long). Of course, it would be nice if the new control actually worked (I can be unreasonable at times).



A short video of the fine control: http://youtu.be/KpEVIAN06CA



We also followed the advice of our excellent technical expert (the one who "got all his info off of the internet") and are changing out our gas meters. We are going on the condo gas, saving everyone $600 per year. Guess what it took to do this - a rules meeting had to be convened to make sure a rule would be in place to insure that those using cooking gas paid for the gas coming from the condo association (less than $1 per month per participating unit).



I wish there were some way to insure that good advice would be followed. It is easy for sites like this to be ignored. The only thing that is respected by some is the threat of legal sanction of some kind.

HoyteKing

another satisfied boilerpro (now steam wisperer) customer

After a 1 1/2 year oddessy, the gas meters were finally removed today. Every month when I save $50, another thank you to Dave for telling us about this wonderful way to save money..

HoyteKing

update on "progress"

What has happened in the last year?

- insulation installed (and part removed again)

- a control installed (that despite being told to the contrary, a few think should balance the system

- main vents improperly installed



What do you know, our system is still unbalanced.



We recently had a boiler meeting, where I told everyone that we have inadequate mains venting, and wet steam due to the lack of a header. The response:





Questions for Ziggy (who improperly installed the main venting and is "experimenting" with new vents around the building.

1. Assuming the settings are not changed, why are the temperatures in the units changing within the day, and not staying consistently at a temperature?

2. Are the main vents adequate, or could they be partly the cause for balancing issues?

a. What about placing vents at other points along the mains, namely in south east corner (3 CFM @ 1oz) and at the end of the westernmost line (8 CFM @ 1oz).

3. Could the steam pipes themselves be corroded to the point of blocking steam to cold units?

4. Do we need to install a different header on our system so that water will not get into the steam pipes? Can this concept of wet steam be responsible for the cold units?

5. Ask for bid on mapping all of our radiators as to size, placement, vent size, etc. and giving strategy for optimal settings across all units



It looks to me like asking questions will not make things worse. This has been going on since January of 2005, by the way.

HoyteKing

Bullheaded problems or just no insulation?

Attached is my answer to the above questions for Ziggy.



Do we have a bullhead problem on the return?



Does that little Gorton do enough venting on the mains?



Does the section of removed insulation have a serious effect on the system?

HoyteKing

Ziggy knows best; HeatingHelp - well...

The local Ziggy (30 years of experience with steam) gave us some helpful advice on our steam issues. QUESTIONS TO ZIGGY, ANSWERS BY ZIGGY, then my COMMENTARY:



here is what he essentially said:



QUESTION: Assuming the settings are not changed, why are the temperatures in the units changing within the day, and not staying consistently at a temperature?

ANSWER: Essentially his feeling here is that the variance is driven a lot by the units themselves not having the right set-ups from a vent perspective etc. He also highlighted that because we have the variable of the actual outside temperature, the number of variables here makes it difficult to pinpoint one thing, which I think does make sense from that perspective.

COMMENTARY: Everyone agrees on the vents not being right. Hard to tell, but he seems to be referring to a south facing area being warmer. That is mitigated by adequate main venting. Did he address the location question? Did he say why it is okay that the vents are not 6" off the line? Did he say why it is okay that they are after F and T traps AND by the condensation tank? Did he say why it is okay that the F and T traps do not allow steam pressure to vent quickly, and THEN you have the main vents? Mains are supposed to vent quickly. How can they if there are F and T traps before them. Also, the condensation take is doing the venting after the F and T traps. I saw it with my own eyes last week. The main vents did nothing. Also, did he say why it is okay for the two of the main vents to have duct work blocking them (which is not an issue here as the vents don't do anything in their present location).



QUESTION: Are the main vents adequate, or could they be partly the cause for balancing issues. What about placing vents at other points along the mains, namely in south east corner (3 CFM @ 1oz) and at the end of the westernmost line (8 CFM @ 1oz)?

ANSWER: Not surprisingly he does not feel that this is the major issue, he feels the three vents are good ones that are installed, he did say he feels that other vent on the 521 side is a waste because it doesn't really do anything. He told me he would certainly install more vents if that's really something we wanted, but that his feeling is we have to fix the in unit issues with adjusting the vents (he said they should basically put the slowest vent on the hottest in the overheating apartment radiators throughout to force the temperature down). He said we'd be better served spending the money to get the in unit radiator vents better suited to locations and that he could certainly do the work to map / size, but he could provide us with the calculation tools (which we have).

COMMENTARY: So, he is saying that the source of the problem is in the overheating radiators, and not in the system as a whole. He is saying that the steam is okay, and that it comes and leaves as it should. All we need to do is vent the radiators correctly, as did Hayes.



QUESTION: Could the steam pipes themselves be corroded to the point of blocking steam to cold units?

ANSWER: This one he didn't think was the issue, he said the vents would be plugging up more if that was the case.

COMMENTARY: Sounds right to me.



QUESTION: Do we need to install a different header on our system so that water will not get into the steam pipes? Can this concept of wet steam be responsible for the cold units?

ANSWER: He again said he thought the system was installed well and that even some of the things that were done to fit it in our location are still done well. He said the boiler is working, it's the units that he feels need to have vents adjusted to slow or increase output. COMMENTARY: So it does not matter that the manufacturer instal instructions were not followed. Just why does he say that it was done when the install was not done to manufacturer specs? The boiler is heating well? What did he actually say about the header? It is not possible for there to be bad (wet) steam? The header is bigger than normal, but too low, and with no return. Why did the manufacturer want a return on the header. Maybe it looks prettier with one?



QUESTION: Price of mapping all of our radiators as to size, placement, vent size, etc. and giving strategy for optimal settings across all units.

ANSWER: Said he could do it, but we could do it ourselves. He reiterated that it is going to be one of those things as you adjust one unit or area, another will be affected and so on. It's like a triangulation problem.

COMMENTARY: This is of course something that is done after everything else.



ANOTHER PERSONS TAKE ON THINGS:

Bottom line he wasn't trying to sell me more work, but talk to me. He seems to feel we should address internal unit issues - he did say maintenance and checking all the units was a very solid idea. He said the vents that we have on the mains now probably have another year or so of life before they will have to be replaced.



GENERAL COMMENTARY: He advises doing everything absolutely against industry standards; not according to instal instructions; be happy with poor workmanship, etc. If you follow his advice, you will be doing basically what Hayes came up with, and continue to suffer. The gas bills will also be higher. Go ahead.

HoyteKing

Five year update: The system has stayed out of balance. Many neighbors moved, and the new neighbors just this evening agreed to a proper main vent install by Steam Whisperer. The end of the odyssey is in site.

Thought some might enjoy this conversation I found in my records from 2014 with a Hayes (Chicago) tech:

More or less our conversation from yesterday (December 18, 2014):
- Me - Why did Hayes only replace some tubes every year on the Kewanee?
- Him - Well, you know how much it would cost to replace them all? (He thought I meant to replace them all every year - do I look stupid (don't answer that))
- Me - There are welds on the header.
- Him - Well, that is okay because the pipes are threaded on the inside of the boiler below the welds, allowing flexibility. This is a commercial boiler, not a home boiler. Anyway, there is no clearance.
- Me - well, why not lower the floor?
- Him - Well, the water table is high.
- Me - then why is there not a problem with the Kewanee over there. Look how low it is.
- Him - Well, you would have to pour new concrete.
- Me - (incredulous look) [From what I read it seems we have taken on the risk of the boiler cracking at between 10 and 14 years out from install. Basically, Emcore gave us the risk of the boiler having catastrophic failure at half its design life in order to save some money. If the welding was done/designed right, we should not have a problem. If the install had been done with no welding as per the installation manual, there would be no risk for us at all. This gentleman may not realize it, but he thinks that is okay.]
- Me - Why no return coming back from the header into the boiler through the pig?
- Him - Well, you don't necessarily need that.
- Me - So wet steam is okay?
- Him - Well, no, but... Well, the wet return does that.
- Me, isn't that after the steam has returned (pointing at the return line)?
- Him - Well, yeah. I guess on the header is a good spot. [Sounds to me like he does not think about the system as one unified system. The Hayes approach is to always follow procedure. Why do we need that sort of mentality when it has NEVER helped us before. Remember, Hayes is the company that raised the PSI to 3 because the little old lady in charge of our boiler wanted to, and then took $2000 from the condo association the next day to fix it.]
- Me - Wouldn't it be good to vent the mains?
- Him - Oh, yeah. Definitely. The main vents you have now don't do anything because they are installed in a spot where the steam has already turned into water. [I think to myself "Wow, I have been explaining this using exact language. This is much better for the condo association people to understand."] Have you looked at your radiators yet, though?
- Me - That is why your company will not be back in here. You told us to do that. We did. It does not work. You tell everyone to do that. That is your company's reputation.
- Him - Well, when you deal with these old boilers that is always the first thing to look at. The system has already been set up.
- Me - So, you don't look for the source of the problem. Anyway, our boiler is not old. It was installed in December 2004.
- Him - Well, yeah.
Me – Why wasn’t a Hartford Loop installed?
Him – Well, these pumps and this tank take the place of the Hartford Loop.
Me – Oh, right. But, isn’t a Hartford Loop a lot cheaper and do the same thing?
Him – Well, yeah. But the city inspectors don’t like city water going into the boiler.
[Now this is one of those moments that when the brain just refuses to register what has been said (ADHD?) The water for the steam came from the boiler. The water in the pipes after it comes back from the boiler is now city water? Well, I guess the Hayes guy has me on that one.]

gfrbrookline

I believe there is someone on cable TV that has a tag that says "you cant fix stupid", time to find a new contractor.

SeanBeans

This is sad