Has our system been analyzed correctly?

Rod

Hog Radiators

Dave, Paul - Thanks for the Kudos!  I equally appreciate what I read in your posts.



Hoyteking -  Attached below is a write up on radiator vents and "Hogging" which may be of help to you.  I don't know what more we can do for you. In Chicago you have access to one of the best steam pros in the U.S. yet your condo association seems determined to stay in the clutches of a "knucklehead".  If the "knucklehead" is such a steam expert, it should be very easy for him to quickly straighten your system out and make it run so it saves money and all the units have comfortable heat.  I'm a homeowner and an amateur at this but I'm pretty sure that even I could straighten out your steam system fairly easily. A good steam pro could even take your system farther and "tweek" it to the maximum which would result in further savings to your condo owners.   Good luck!

- Rod

nicholas bonham-carter

allies in the cause

i still think that your allies in this will be any of your neighbors who

1.complain about fuel/heating cost...or

2.those who suffer discomfort [too cold...too hot].

3.those who are contemplating the sale of their condos soon, and would like a good score on their inspection certificate.

if you can get those neighbors interested, then your voice in front of the board will be magnified.

perhaps you can get some square foot heating costs for mr. sreja's building, and compare them with your own. this may demonstrate to the doubting thomas's that the situation could be better.--nbc

HoyteKing

Facts not enough

I completely agree about not being a lone voice. No one wants to deal with this information with lives to lead. At the same time. Animosity colors the outlook of older individuals. If I am by myself, I will fail or have to go some sort of legal route. Not a good way to go.



One individual seems to think installing smaller radiators is a way out. We still won't have main venting, etc, but the idea is to not fight a battle that would mean agreeing with me against others.



Would installing smaller radiators work?

nicholas bonham-carter

would smaller radiators work?

if they were a viable option, then the steam experts who installed the system long ago would have selected them at that time. the river in chicago is not only filled with the corpses of mobsters, and asian carp; but also with unknowlegeable steam-fitters who couldn't get their systems working evenly for those early chicagoans.

why not encourage your overheated neighbor to ask his questions here, and to read boilerpro's white paper. people can get a sense of empowerment here, as they begin to get an understanding of their steam problems/solutions

to give you an analogy: if the brakes are dragging on your car; would you put in a more powerful engine, or fix the brakes?.--nbc

ps, don't forget to click on the edit button next to your first posting, and separate any web address in the text by a line, so the orange color will revert to black.

HoyteKing

Two good reasons?

I found this short explanation. It makes sense to me. What do you all think?



http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/asktoh/question/0,,192752,00.html

nicholas bonham-carter

small radiators

the real reason for not making the change is that the thermal mass will be too small with the smaller radiators. properly maintained/adjusted steam systems heat up the radiators once an hour, and the metal of the radiator can continue to give off heat for that time. small radiators would be warm for a brief period, and then have no more heat to give off.-nbc

Paul48

HoyteKing

I don't know if you read the link I posted about F&T traps,so I'll repost the exploded detailed view from the page. Notice in the picture, the inlet is behind the float, and there are 2 seperate orifices, one for condensate and one for "venting" air (large volumes of air). http://www.armstronginternational.com/files/en_US/product_solutions/steam_trapping_and_steam_tracing_equip/steam_traps/float_and_thermostatic/images/SubFT1_Full.jpg

HoyteKing

explanation I revised

Rod,

Thank you very much for your explanation. As you see below, I revised it a bit to fit this particular situation.

Rod

Revised Evaluation

Hi -    I think you are getting in too deep with trying to explain the ins and outs of steam heating to the other residents. It’s sort of like discussing jet engine maintenance with the passengers on a Boeing 757 . They really don’t need to know it. It is only important that they know the mechanic working on the engines is very competent.  This goes the same for steam heating. What you need is a Steam Pro.  There are a lot of heating pros out there who think that they understand steam heating but unfortunately it would seem remarkably few do.  I would ask for references and check those references out and these should not be “mickey mouse” home owner references but from large apartment/condo buildings where a steam boiler installation was done.  If you’re looking for the cheapest guy you’re most likely looking at incompetence.  Good steam pros are in demand and are paid accordingly. With steam, the old adage “You get what you pay for” really applies. A good steam pro can save you thousands of dollars in fuel and give you a very comfortable steam system.

- Rod



Comments on Recent Evaluation.

A. Here’s the quote from it-

“Our system as needed.

We do not have:

- an F & T trap (bucket traps – blue things – there now)

- main vents in correct location to actually work”

Comments-

1. You have traps ( “the blue things”). Whether they are functional or are of the correct type and size and in the correct location I can’t determine from the posts.

2. If the traps are the right size, functional and properly located in the system you really shouldn’t need main vents. To vent properly there also shouldn’t be any restrictions on the venting from the trap to the opening of the tank vent pipe.  Example- What’s the “white” fitting doing on the top of the receiver (condensate) Tank?

Look at the vents in the condensate tank drawings on pages 171 & 172 in The Lost Art of Steam Heating as to how the open vent on the condensate tank should be configured.



B. Quote:

“Above is shown what we could do if the condensation tank were eliminated. That is when Perfect Temperature’s vent placement would work. As you can see below, there is a condensation tank, which means there is an open vent pipe. These Gorton vents are not  placed properly as a result.”

Comments-

1. Condensate tank- I only included the Gravity Condensate Return drawing to show the different types of return layouts. It was not to recommendation that you change to this type of layout.  While it would be beneficial if you could change to this type of return as it would simplify your system and the maintenance, certain piping measurement parameters need to be met and if they can’t  be,  you may not be able to eliminate  the condensate tank.

Why?

1. You may not have enough “A” Dimension

2. The return of the Condensate from the piping through out the building may be to too slow.



For info on “A” Dimension  read  Page 24-28 in The Lost Art of Steam Heating

 

In the second part of the comment  “That is when Perfect Temperature’s vent placement would work”

Main Vents won’t  work at their present position even if you changed to a Gravity Return System  because they are NOW located way too close to the level of the boiler’s waterline. Water would backup in the return pipe and flood the vents during normal operation.  See the info on “A” Dimension above for an explanation.

Rod

Smaller Radiators

Hi - The thought of going to smaller radiators is rather funny until you realize that this is going to cost someone a lot and not accomplish anything.  Get the venting (mains & radiators) straightened out and you should see a big improvement.  A lot of homeowners (me too!) started out thinking huge capacity radiator vents would work well and now have them collecting dust in our spare parts bin.

- Rod

nicholas bonham-carter

Your allies in the quest

Start gathering the other boiling/freezing neighbors, who like the small radiator person, would agree that thy are suffering discomfort, because the system has a problem.

Reassure those fellow suffers that the system could be much more comfortable, if certain things were changed. Then approach the board as a group, and see if that does not at least move things forward. Don't confuse them with a lot of technical explanation-just say the system is not working as it was designed to function.

Are the members of the board somehow not suffering the same discomfort as you and "small radiators" are?--nbc

HoyteKing

Minority not majority

Everyone got my explanation yesterday. To quote: "I don't agree with your "proof." It's fine theory, but wrong here."



Why it is wrong will not be addressed. Paradigm shifts often take decades.



Guess it's time to close the ol' thread. Thank you all again for your efforts. They will be used some day.

Paul48

As

the saying goes...."You can't fix stupid". I don't recall, but I hope your condo is one of the ones that overheats, as you can fix that for yourself with TRV's. As for the rest of them....they can go fan ice. Best Wishes

Rod

Steam System

Paul makes a good point. Hopefully your unit is one of those that overheat. If so, we can suggest several possible local  "fixes" which will make you more comfortable.

HoyteKing

TRV

I have already started looking into TRVs. Danfoss seams the brand to use, judging by reviews.



There are a lot to choose from.



http://www.pexsupply.com/Danfoss-105000-b?gclid=CKaH0MSylq8CFSQCQAodj0i61g



I was thinking to stay away from the ones with remotes. More things to break.

Paul48

HoyteKing

Does the boiler operate on a reset control......On and off, with a thermostat?

HoyteKing

Control

A RC2100 Wireless steam boiler control with one outdoor and three indoor sensors is to be installed if the bid is approved. All for the reasonable price of $4,000.



I had received a recommendation for another brand.

Paul48

TRV

I believe the Danfoss TRV's have an integral vacuum breaker. This is important, when the system goes to zero pressure, the vacuum breaker allows any remaining condensate to drain from the radiator. Here is a link to more "unfounded evidence" :-) , and it applies to your use of TRV's. http://www.fiainc.com/documents/10-08Canyoureallycontrolaone-pipesteamsystem.pdf

Rod

Radiator Vents & TRVs

Hi-

Below is a little “blurb” on TRVs and I have attached a Danfoss sheet on the 1pipe model TRV which might be of help to you. You might also want to look into using Hoffman 1A or a Ventrite #1 as radiator vents. The high capacity vents like the Vari-Vents  aren't what you want. I'll attach some spec sheets for you to this post. I use Vent-rite #1 s for radiator vents and have been very happy with them. I also have both Macon and Danfoss TRVs.  Both are very good units. The vacuum breaker in the Danfoss 1 Pipe TRV is internal and on the Macon 1 Pipe TRV  it is external. 

- Rod



TRVs



TRVs stand for Thermostatic Radiator Valves.  They are used on hot water and steam systems to regulate the heat output of the radiator.  



2 Pipe TRV -On a two pipe steam system, the TRV is installed on the inlet pipe and shuts of the incoming steam when the temperature reaches the adjusted setting on the TRV.



1 Pipe TRV - On a one pipe steam system the TRV works on a different principle. The TRV is installed between  the radiator and the steam vent.  A one pipe steam TRV also needs a vacuum breaker to allow air back into the radiator when the boiler shuts off.  (Note - On the TRVs mentioned below , the Macon TRV, the vacuum breaker is external and on the Danfoss TRV, it is internal (built in).

It is important to get the proper model TRV to match the type (1 pipe or 2 pipe) of system you have.  



How a 1 Pipe TRV Operates - As mentioned above, the one pipe TRV is mounted on the radiator vent hole, between the radiator and the radiator vent.  When steam enters the radiator, if the room temperature is below the setting on the TRV, the escaping air goes thru the TRV and out the air vent, when steam reached the air vent it closes just as it would without the TRV. When the boiler shuts off, the vacuum breaker allows air to re enter the radiator.  This cycle continues until the room temperature reaches the setting on the TRV. The TRV valve now closes and prevents air from escaping out the vent. With the air trapped in the radiator, steam is now prevented from entering  until the TRV drops below the set temperature and reopens, allowing air to escape and steam to now fill the radiator again.





Here's some links to several different models.

 Macon - The Macon model for one pipe steam -   http://www.maconcontrol.com/opsk1204.html



Danfoss TRVs: http://na.heating.danfoss.com/Content/c3841968-5947-489a-a1f1-702664881446_MNU17392439_SIT209.html



Danfoss Animation

Note: These animations show TRVs for hot water systems however the mechanism is basically the same on the one pipe steam model. - Click on the following link:

http://na.heating.danfoss.com/Content/161a8b0f-a195-42b2-9487-7ee4083398cf_MNU17483715_SIT209.html

This will take you to a Danfoss page which will say “The page can not be found” Go to the menu at the top of this page and click on “Knowledge Center”. On the Knowledge Center page, click on “Operation of the RA 2000- Thermostatic Operator ‘and that will take you to the animation page.  For some reason the direct link isn’t working at the moment.

 

You can install 1 pipe TRVs yourself.  You should be able to get these units from your local heating supply or on the internet. (Try Pex Supply - http://www.pexsupply.com/ Type in the word  “Danfoss”in the Search/Find window and that should get you to them.



Note: When pricing them out be advised that the Macon TRV comes with a radiator vent included. On the Danfoss your must supply the vent. It needs to be a straight vent rather than the normal angled radiator vent.  You can use a 1/8 inch 90 degree street elbow between the TRV and then use a regular angled vent,

       

David Nadle

Danfoss TRVs

It's important to follow the recommendations about free air flow (but not drafts) around the TRV sesnor. If your radiator is covered or there are long drapes you should not use the direct mount operator. The remote unit is connected to the actuator by a metal capillary tube; it's relatively sturdy. The "wall mount" dial/sensor mounts over a 3/4" hole. I mounted mine to the sides of my radiator covers and they work very well.

 

Paul48

Isn't

it amazing.......the wealth of timeless, unfounded evidence. LOL  :-P

nicholas bonham-carter

your final message

don't forget to look through your first posting, and separate any web addresses from the rest of the text, so as to make your post revert to black, otherwise anyone you direct to have a look will be blinded by the orange text.

good luck with the rest of your travails. unfortunately these sophisticated control systems still require the system to be functioning correctly, in order to do their best. luckily for him your installer will be paid by the hour as he tries to solve the problems you have described.

let us know how it turns out as it goes along.--nbc

HoyteKing

Tekmar diagram showing main venting location

I am getting bids on controls. The Tekmar has a wonderful diagram on where main venting goes. At the end of the run before the return starts, meaning after the radiators. This is what clicked for me, seeing it like this. It may be of use to some of you with steam dunderheads like me.



http://tekmarcontrols.com/media/literature/279_d_06.pdf



P.S. I have tried reformatting my original post, but without success.



P.P.S. The guy who came to give an estimate today is a steam man, but a bit younger. I asked him about the Gortons. He said they were fine. I then asked about what the bucket trap does, and the PVC vent on the tank. He said the tank vent was for condensate. The Gortons were for the air. He then mentioned this site to ask about such stuff. I said I did already and that the Gortons were said to be in the wrong place. He immediately backed off, saying " I see what your saying, air could come out of there." He has been to a couple of Mr. Holohan's seminars, he said.



That was an interesting exchange for me. He is also of the opinion that the steam buckets are undersized. He wasn't sure about fitting in an F & T trap, either. (We have a new ceiling that lowered clearance).

nicholas bonham-carter

favored steam control

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/135476/Tekmar-297-Steam-Boiler-Controller-Share-Your-Settings

this one seems the most popular, although it is not wireless yet.

the addition of a low-pressure gauge [gaugestore.com 0-3 psi] would show how ineffective the venting is.--nbc

HoyteKing

R & D's in Chicago

R & D is the control of choice in Chicago. It is a local company here and their sensors are wireless. I was told today that Tekmars are usually installed in bigger buildings. Their site if anyone is curious:



http://www.rdcontrolsystems.com/steam-1400-series.php

Dave in QCA

Another source

Here is another source of drawings of steam systems.  Hoffman Speciality has been around forever and their advice is considered almost gospel.  http://completewatersystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/7250.pdf 

As for Tekmar, I am using one in a building with 8,000 sq ft and 7 units.  It works GREAT!  Cost was very affordable.  I installed with 2 indoor sensors, 1 outdoor, and 1 end of main sensor.



I do not have experience with the RD models, but my understanding is that they are essentially a system of sensors and control that essentially works like a thermostat.  The outdoor sensor is for warm weather shutdown.   The Tekmar does not work on that principle, but rather on the principle that a certain amount of heat is needed each hour based on the outdoor temperature.  The indoor sensors provide feedback to fine tune the running time.  The boiler never runs to satisfy the indoor sensor, which usually results in temperature fluctuations.  The result is a very even temperature within the spaces.  I have had my unit for 4 years and am very happy with its performance.

Dave in QCA

Some thoughts on the probems

It occured to me that the strangest aspect about all of this is the following.  You have a heating system that is performing very poorly.  Everybody in the building agrees on that point.  Yet, they appear to be totally committed to the contractor that created the problems in the first place and refuse to listen to any ideas other than his.  Yet... if I understand correctly, he is the contractor that probably installed the boiler, and the rest of the expensive components, many of which aren't even needed, and are creating the problem.  Perhpas the question should be, Do we like our heating system the way it is?   If the anwer is no, then, "Let's call the person who made it this way and see if he can make it even worse?"



It Boggles my mind, and I had swore that I would not spend any more of my time on this thread, but here I am!  I feel bad for everyone in the building, included the leadership committed to the unknowledgeable contractor.  I also feel a little sorry for the contractor, "he doesn't know what he doesn't know".  Ugh!

Dave in QCA

On Inverted Bucket Traps and F&T Traps

The body of this post was deleted because I was wrong.   Sorry Hoyte.  Thanks Boiler Pro.

Rod

Hoffman Configuration Drawing

Hi- In the post below(correction - "above") Dave has posted the Hoffman's diagrams of different configurations of steam systems. Yours is similar to the Mechanical Return on the bottom of page 3. Note - no main vents are shown as the vent pipe of the condensate tank provides the means for air to exit the system. A 1/2 inch open vent pipe vents at a rate of more than 2 each Gorton #2 s (per Gerry Gill's excellent venting chart)   The big question is whether the present traps are:  1. Functional and 2.  Sized properly.

 I wouldn't be too critical of the young steam guy as at first glance it might be a bit hard to realize how "knuckleheaded" the system actually is until you really study it. This is where experience makes a big difference. I've noticed that the really experienced steam pros are very sensitive to "knuckleheading" and can identify it almost immediately and know whether it is detrimental to the system or not.

- Rod

HoyteKing

WM series 88

Here is the manual for our boiler. Thank you for the info on our traps. Reading about it in "the book" is not always enough.



Calculations were left for later. We have been told the boiler is a little big for our building (8 units at around 1750 sq ft each + two stairwells with two landings.



I am beginning to think of venting the mains as some sort of ephemeral dream, like winning the lottery or world peace. If I am ever in a beauty pagent, it will be difficult to choose peace or main venting.

HoyteKing

Who did what when

We had Hayes Mechanical as our vendor since the ancients were here. I have the coal delivery slips to prove it. That company is really big in Chicago. It has been around for a long time and is resting on its laurals now. No one knows anything, so why should they be different?



I moved in 2 1/2 years ago and noticed it was hotter than hell in our unit. The girls that rented before we bought the place had been using the window ventilation sysem.



I finally got Hayes dumped when with a smirk they said they would do our mains for half the price of the estimate. Turns out they were going to do half the work for twice the money. That turned enough units against them.



We have to get a new contractor. A compromise was agreed upon. Everyone should agree on the new contractor. Well, I did not agree to a knucklehead, and the votes were there to ignore me. Thus our Gortons and a proposal to install some sort of ridiculous control that seems to be for air conditioning units at $4000 (with tax).



I just got two bids today for Tekmar or RD. I imagine the bids will come in for slightly less than $4000. That should be the end of this knucklehead contractor (the imphamous Ziggy).



There is a little bit of drama that I am leaving out.

Dave in QCA

Probably a Series 1

The link to the manual is for a series 2 boiler.  You most likely have a model 88, series 1.   The series 1 was blue.  The Series 2 is tan.  Here is a link to the series 1 manual http://weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/products/discontinued/discontinued-boilers/88-series-1-boiler/88boilermanual.pdf 

Calculations for steam boiler sizing is on EDR or connected radiation, not the sq ft of floor space.  EDR = sq ft of radiation.   A common column type cast iron radiator with 3 columns that is 38" tall has 5 sq ft per section.  

Dave in QCA

Beauty Pagent?

Uh... well OK.  On the outside chance that you enter a beauty pagent... and win! .......  Having a hard time picturing....

You should ask for world peace.  In a peaceful state of mind, hardened hearts are softened, closed minds are opened, and reason prevails.   If not reason, then perhaps, just because it might seem like the nice thing to do, to let you have your way, since you seem so determined.   

Dave in QCA

tekmar

Here is a link to the tekmar control at pex supply. http://www.pexsupply.com/Tekmar-279-Steam-Control-One-Stage-7959000-p    This is pretty much all you need plus 1 or 2 indoor sensors.  They are listed at  http://www.pexsupply.com/Tekmar-076-Indoor-Sensor-G-Enclosure-4169000-p  

This will give you a pretty good idea of the wholesale cost of the unit.

HoyteKing

Heating Help right again!

Yes, it is a series 1. I just checked. It will probable cost me another accusation of tampering with the timer that is locked, but worth checking.

Dave in QCA

We're Not Just a Bunch of Idiots....

Once in a while, we know what we're talking about.  In fact, most of the time!  The hell of it is, we actually do this work for free!  Perhaps if we charged, we'd be more highly regarded?



There is an old saying, "That which comes easy is little valued."

Rod

Boiler Model ?

Okay We've established the your boiler is a WM 88 Series 1. The next thing we need to know is the model number. On the 88 Series this ranges from  488 to 1888  (ie 488, 588, 688 .....etc.) The sections of a boiler are like slices of bread. They just add on an another section (s) to make the boiler bigger. Get all the figures you can off the placard plate attached to the boiler.



On the boiler control bid, have them break it down to separate the equipment cost and the cost of install and the cost of setting it up.  

HoyteKing

model number photo

nicholas bonham-carter

a 2nd chance to get a real pro in!

call up dave the boilerpro, and have him bid the tekmar/rd install, with a disclaimer that the system of course should be properly functioning before expecting the new control to work miracles. let your over-heated neighbors know that there should be a substantial reduction in cost of installation, along with a general improvement in operation. --nbc

Rod

Determining the Model

Since the installer apparently didn't check the box next to the appropriate model, you will need to determine that yourself by measuring the length of the boiler jacket (cabinet).  Measure the length (It should be the longest side of the "box") and then compare the measure length to the dimensions in column 3 on the placard. That should determine what model it is.