New boiler, new banging

Poto

In Nov. we made the switch from oil to gas.  Since the new boiler was installed we've had banging throughout the whole house.  I've had the contractor out twice to try to fix this.  Had him lower the water level to glass half full and turn down the pressure to 2psi on the "main" and .5psi on the diff. and look over the system to make sure everything was in order and nothing was overlooked.  Unfortunately it's been a mild winter here and they showed up on warm days where heat wasn't really being called for.  Everything seemed good to go when they left until that night when the temp dropped and the hammering started again and hasn't stopped.  I've since insulated the main, dropped the "main" pressure to 1 1/2psi, and I've had to lower the water level several times to get the glass gauge to half full.  I've since bought the "A Steamy Deal" package, and now, with my limited knowledge I'm guessing my problems are starting at the boiler, since the only difference in the system.  I'm hesitant to bring the installation contractor back because I'm thinking at this point I probably know more then he does. 



We have a 2-pipe system. The boiler is a Crown Bermuda Series with LWCO and auto fill.  Here are some pics.  I could use all the help I can get. Thanks

Charlie from wmass

what state is this in?

Was this ever looked at by an inspector?  Yes the boiler is piped NOT according to manufacturer's recommendations. I am hoping it was the low bidder who did this mess. My concern is as much the dangling flue pipe and gas line as it is the kids in construction steam piping.

kcopp

really...

what a mess. Did he pull a permit? Was it ever inspected? Obviously he NEVER opened the instuction manual..... This is where? Oh and I am sure he spent several hours skimming it too.... You need to start over again.

Poto

New boiler, new banging

Wasn't the highest bidder, but wasn't the lowest either.  I chose this company because the guy who came to do the estimate sounded like he knew more then the others and they were on the gas companies approved contractors list.  Looking at the only photo I have of the old boiler,  which isn't really of the boiler, the only significant change to the steam piping is the 90° turns in the supply coming off the boiler.  The old oil burner had a straight pipe straight to the main.  I can't see the return piping.



As far as I know, now permits are needed to replace existing equipment. 



Starting over is not an option.

kcopp

Why isn't

starting the piping over an option? If you don't do the piping over ...get used to the hammer. Look at the boiler instruction manual (if it is still there) ans see how they want it pipied. If the contractor has any morals he will make it right. Look at page 14... you need 24" minimum before making any turns

http://www.crownboiler.com/documents/Bermuda_Installation_Manual.pdf

Poto

New boiler, new banging

Sorry, thought you meant new boiler, piping, etc.

I checked that, and it's right @ 24" from the middle of the glass gauge, or normal waterline.  Am I measuring from the right spot?

Jamie Hall

Another one...

That flexible pipe for a flue connection would give me the willies.  If it's legal, it shouldn't be.



On the boiler piping -- I don't see an equalizer anywhere?  Is it there and just hidden?  The equalizer actually does two things -- equaizes the pressure in the returns, yes, but also provides a way for water brought up into the header to get back to the boiler rather than flying around in your system and creating the Anvil Chorus.  That horizontal bit of pipe probably does conform to the absolute minimum dimensions shown -- but without an equalizer or a drip at the end of it, where it turns up to the steam main, it's going to bang.

Al Corelli_2

Flue pipe. If that's what you call it.

Does that poor excuse for flue pipe REDUCE in size right at the boiler?

Where is this job located?

I don't know, I've only been doing this for a few decades, but where in the US is flexible venting allowed?

And, running CSST right to the sppliance?

Was the contractor named "Hack Job Harry?"

Poto

no equalizer

Never was an equalizer, even with the old boiler.

Paul48

I'm

putting this up, because it is easier to see proper piping. Look at page 25..It is the contractors job to install the boiler to manufacturers specification. http://www.usboiler.net/products/boilers/megasteam/assets/manual.pdf

nicholas bonham-carter

new loud boiler

in omaha, any new boiler, whether replacement or not is subject to inspection by the state, and the local utility. they look at the flue arrangement, gas supply piping, and the pressure relief/safeties. they would not allow flexible flue pipe, or flexible gas line.

they however are not knowledgeable enough to inspect the subtleties of steam piping without looking at the installation manual, and comparing the diagrams with the actual piping.

with steam boilers, neither the capacity, nor the piping will be the same as the old boiler. if this boiler was changed under some program with the gas company, they should help you deal with this incompetent installation, before your warranty is voided.--nbc

kcopp

old boilers....

and new boilers are not the same... just as a car from 1960 and a car from 2010 are not the same. Newer boilers have a lot less water and the near boiler piping is CRITCAL to performance. Look at the boiler instructions... they are pretty clear. Still would like to know about where this is. Massachusetts? new england...NY state? not trying to get anyone in trouble just getting you better help.

Poto

PA

Lancaster County, PA.  Just rated the happiest place in the U.S.

Paul48

They

didn't include your household in the survey.....right?They ran off when they heard the banging, thinking you were shooting at them.

Poto

Nope

Surveys were done in Oct. 2011 and the pipes weren't banging yet, but I didn't have a functioning boiler either.

Paul48

I

don't mean to make light of your situation. Unfortunately, your installation screams of a complete lack of skill. Included in the installation price, should be everything necessary to install the boiler to manufacturers specification, and comply with todays codes. Your installer did neither, and you are left with the mess. As said, get the gas company involved,or any other entity necessary to get the situation rectified. Take control of the situation...remember, the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

Rod

New Boiler

Hi- As others have mentioned you have some serious piping problems.  Probably the best thing to do is go back to basics. Was a survey done to determine the total amount of EDR of the system's radiators?  If not, that is probably the first thing you should do to make sure the new boiler is the correct size for the system. There is no point of repiping the new boiler if it doesn't have enough steam capacity to do the job. I've attached a sheet which will help you calculate the EDR load if this hasn't already been done.

The other thing that would help is to have some more photos taken from all sides of the boiler.  Stand further back so the piping - (steam mains and returns) is included in the pictures. What we need these for is to be able to trace out the piping. Don't worry about detail as we can blow the pictures up if necessary.   You're lucky in that you have a two pipe steam system. Once you get a few things straightened out it should really purr.

- Rod

Poto

Update

After reading some of the replies, I decided to get the installing contractor in here to fix the mess he created.  Luck for me, they'll be here bright and early tomorrow morning.  I feel a little better about getting this thing figured out now that I know more, but I'm sure they're going to be fighting me tooth and nail to do what needs done.  Also, I'm still trying to find regs and regulations on the exhaust set-up.  I'm confident that the tubing used the run the gas is with-in regs since I've seen pics of it being used in new housing.



Once more question.  Today when I went down to check things out when the boiler was firing, I noticed that: 1. on initial start-up, there's very little water left in the glass guage 2. right after firing, my return mains are as hot as my supply mains until you get further from the boiler.  I think I know what the water problem is about, any ideas on the hot return lines? Thanks again.

Poto

I'm guessing

it was done. Everyone we got estimates from came in, looked at all the rads, measured height, number of sections, and noted if it was 2, 3, or 4 tube, and if it was baseboard they measured the length.  Two of the three also measured the length of the mains.  We got 2 quotes using the Crown BSI-138 and one with Crown BSI-172. 



I'll try to get some more pics.

Paul48

One

battle at a time. Just get the install corrected to manufacturers specification.Stand your ground and don't fold!

Charlie from wmass

The flex gas line known as CSST

Has an installation manual from the manufacturer. It is different in Massachussets as here the pipe down fron the ceiling must be iron and properly anchored to the building. Your local codes may allow it to be run this close to the appliance but I feel it needs secured better.

Hap_Hazzard

The whole point of the equalizer

Is to keep the steam pressure from pushing the water into the return. See paragraph 2 of http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/325/Piping/291/What-you-should-know-about-Hartford-Loops for a little historical background.

Steamhead

Where in Lancaster County?

We're in Baltimore, and could come up to have a look if you need some more eyes on this thing.......

Rod

Boiler Installation

Hi-  I've attached a schematic from the installation manual and have written some notes in it. The page numbers are references in The Lost Art of Steam Heating. I would also read through Chapter 4 in the Lost  Art.  Here is also a link to good video on boiler piping:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/107/Steam-Heating/118/Steam-boiler-near-boiler-piping

The boiler needs to be piped according to the manufacturer's installation instructions. How it was piped before is absolutely immaterial.



Charlie and Steamhead are both very experienced steam pros.  Charlie's comments about the gas line I would seriously consider. If I were you I would also consider getting Steamhead to take a look at your system. He is able to get the most out of these old systems so they run very comfortably and economically.

- Rod

kcopp

Good luck...

That is a great offer from Steamhead.... knowledge & workmanship doesn't get any better than that....

Poto

Thanks

Appreciate the offer, but like I said early, the installing contractor should be here in the morning.  And since I found the original quote that became the contract and it includes "all piping as needed", I'm not letting him off the hook till it's done right.



We live in Manheim.  TS Lee hit us hard, hence the reason for the boiler being replaced.

Poto

Chapter 4

I was in the middle of chapter 4 when the light bulb went on. 

Poto

Update 2

Service tech showed nice and early this morning.  Spent about 1/2 hour here.  Told him all I've learned, what everyone here has been telling me, and he pretty much agreed that the near boiler piping is a problem.  In fact, he was a little dumbfounded on how the installation tech even could think what was done is acceptable.  He guaranteed that he would make sure that from the owner of the company on down knows what happened here, and that  they will get it done right.  I made sure that he knew that right to me meant by the manufactures installation directions, with equalizer and hatford loop. Unfortunately, he couldn't do anything today to help, but I should be getting a call later today/early Monday to schedule the work needed.

kcopp

Well good...

for him. It is hard to swallow stuff some time but he he wants to make it right.  I have had former employees mess up stuff on me...kpc

Paul48

Operative

word...."Former"