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What wrong with this picture?

04090
04090 Member Posts: 142
Is there anything wrong with this picture? 



Assuming the gauge is accurate, the system operates at 20 PSI cold and 25PSI hot.  The pressure adjustment valve feeds into the return fitting, and the expansion tank is on the supply side but mounted on a dead end stub.  The installer insists all is well. 



The photo is of the supply pipe as it leaves a Burnham boiler:

Comments

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,004
    is that a T&P valve

    ?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • 04090
    04090 Member Posts: 142
    edited February 2012
    valve

    It's just a pressure relief valve, supposedly what came packaged with a new Burnham hot water boiler.
  • jeff_25
    jeff_25 Member Posts: 110
    relief valve

    it mounted wrong its to be pointing up not to the side
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,831
    Wrong place for that safety valve

    not sure which Burnham that is, but somewhere on that boiler there is a tapping where the valve is supposed to go. It'll probably plug up with dirt the way it is now.



    On an ES-2, it's on the left side:

    http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/129307/Our-first-Burnham-ES-2-Install
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    I would say

    The pressure/temp gauge will not be accurate where it is. The pressure will obviously read higher when the water is rushing toward it. As far as the relief valve, I have seen worse. I would like to see the other pics of this install
  • 04090
    04090 Member Posts: 142
    edited February 2012
    more

    That's an excellent point about the high reading pressure. 

     

    More pictures posted.  The pressure reducing valve shown to the right of the expansion tank leads to the return inlet of the boiler.  



    The system has been in use a few months now and has not been inspected.  I see warnings about expansion tanks installed on stubs, about how pressure reducing valves must be upright etc.   I am especially concerned about the pressure relief valve because it's a safety device.  The installer insists all is fine.



    What's in store for us?
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    ESC

    I believe it's an ESC, and I'd like to see a better picture of the supply at the boiler.One of the first things shown in the I&O is proper installation of that relief valve, and I wonder what else they chose to do their own way.Maybe they didn't know what LWCO meant?
  • 04090
    04090 Member Posts: 142
    edited February 2012
    reply

    There is a picture of the supply pipe taken from the back side in the first post.  



    No LWCO card is installed, there isn't even a fitting for the sensor to be screwed into and there is a workshop radiator partially below the lowest point of the boiler.  I believe that alone calls for one to be present. 



    The first photo also shows, in the background, the feed to the boiler of the domestic water into the return pipe.



    The assembly provided with the boiler for the pressure relief valve and gauge to be mounted on was not used.



    Does the pressure relief even get the actual pressure of the circulating water against it's face if it's mounted off a dead end T? 



    What else is wrong with this install?
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    edited February 2012
    Look

    this over. Compare it to what you have... http://www.usboiler.net/products/boilers/esc/assets/manual.pdf Get it inspected, and made right.
  • 04090
    04090 Member Posts: 142
    Yes

    I've read the manual cover to cover and realize there are significant variations from the recommendations. I question what was done, but lack the expertise to know if there's anything functionally wrong. I especially question the safety device.



    The installer tells me all is fine. 
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    has it ever

    popped the relief valve? I think the only thing in question, in my eyes, is the pressure/temp gauge location. The relief valve, although not where the manufacture placed it, is installed, and will release at 28 LBS and up. I don't think system sludge will block it off anymore than in any other location. The extrol tank is also not in the right location, but is also open to the system and will function. That can be easily plugged into the bottom of the Spirovent to bring the system closer to ideal install. It looks to be a neat install. Are you having an issue with it's performance, or is this an installer issue?
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    That

    boiler should absolutely have a LWCO.
  • bill_105
    bill_105 Member Posts: 429
    Okay here goes

    There is one violation and a couple of - less than ideal things.

    The violation is, the relief valve must be vertical.

    The pressure reducing valve can be mounted any way you want it. Ideally it should hook up to the tank fitting. The tank mounting is fine, as in no air traps.

     As for the gauge, do this. Crank up the t-stat so a circ. goes on. Then go turn the power on and off at the boiler and report back here as to how pump operation is changing system pressure at the suction side.

    It's a nice install with a slight cold!
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    edited February 2012
    is this

    a manufacture requirement for the relief valve to me mounted vertically? A lot of them out there are installed, and come thru installed horizontally. Maybe I am wrong? Easy fix with a 3/4 street elbow?
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,548
    billtwocase

    That's a code requirement. Most every, if not all, manufacturers instruct you to pipe it vertically. Many include the fittings to do so.



    I believe the reason is as Frank stated: to prevent debris from clogging the inlet.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    That may be, but

    I have seen vertical piping near rusted close. Have to replace the nipple with the new valve. My take would be that air traps in there, so rusting can take place. Has anyone seen this before?
  • bill_105
    bill_105 Member Posts: 429
    Of all things...

    this relief valve topic was the very first e-mail I ever sent. It went to Conbraco about 13 years ago. They came back with the answer that it's code. I responded that I  already knew that, but what was the reason why? Their engineering Dept. wrote back. They said that after numerous discharges the disc on the stem tends to becomes worn out much faster. Now, that's hard to imagine with something the size of a nickel. I'm guessing it was proved on a very big relief and they deciced to apply it to everything. Yet another mystery?

    I aksed my wife if I could still see that e-mail (her account), she laughed.
  • 04090
    04090 Member Posts: 142
    edited February 2012
    To answer

    To answer one of the above posts, there was no change on the pressure gauge when the system ran, started up or shut down.  Nor were there changes when the circulator(s) started or stopped.  I also turned the switch off while it was running, and there was no change.  The pressure reading is very stable at just over 25 at 160f.  The pressure does drop a bit as the water cools.  I should add this system is for a first floor baseboard loop.





    Is there anything in code about installing an expansion tank on a stub?  There are warnings on the Extrol install sheet not to.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,837
    Give that man a cupie doll !!

    I had a student on my class who tested and rebuilt ASME pressure relief valves for a living. The reason stated is correct, and I would add that in the case of large industrial pressure relief valves (think LARGE power plant type valves that require regular testing and inspection) that in order to guarantee proper operation, the disc, seat and spring must no be unduly affect by gravity. In other words, if the valve is laying on its side, the disc can be pulled down by gravity, thereby causing uneven release of pressure during an "event".



    Hence, the reason for required vertical mounting.



    If you've ever heard one of these valves discharge (large power plant operations) it is something that you will never forget. I heard it once up in Golden Colorado, coming from the boiler plant that is used at the Coors brewery, and it made me want to dig a hole in the ground and climb in it... Unbelievable power in such an "event", which by the way is not normal.



    This same student told me that if you ever see a bunch of people running from one of these buildings, that you'd best drop whatever it is that you are doing, and give chase... I believed him.



    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    would this also be the case

    with a water heater, storage tank, etc, with a 100xl temp and pressure relief valve? I can think of many that have no top of tank tappings, and the valve is horizontal from manufacture.
  • Gary_17
    Gary_17 Member Posts: 37
    in PA

    the State Inspector failed an old (40+ yrs) installation because the relief valve wasn't installed directly into the vessel. It was an old house converted into a dentist's office. Had to cut out an old plug to re-install it
  • 04090
    04090 Member Posts: 142
    edited February 2012
    ... IT'S BEEN FIXED!

    After much insistence from the installer that all was well, he was mandated to make changes.  Now it's designed almost to what's called for by the installation manual.  The safety valve is upright on the fitting supplied by the manufacturer instead sideways off a T, lots of changes took place with the piping and the high pressure issue disappeared.



    Thanks for your help with this.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,831
    How about

    some pics? 
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • 04090
    04090 Member Posts: 142
    edited February 2012
    Sure

    One photo shows the expansion tank now hanging over the front top of the boiler.  Previously, it was on a dead end stub.  Some hangers have been added, and other small changes made.



    The other shows the reinstalled upright safety valve on the manufacturer supplied manifold, the pressure gauge with normal pressure reading, and the regulated water pressure being fed into the supply pipe in black pipe (below the copper sensor and above the wire nuts).  Earlier, that was fed into the return as it entered the boiler.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    Did

    he install a LWCO or secondary hi-limit?
  • 04090
    04090 Member Posts: 142
    yes

    I bought the LWCO online and need to install it.   He was kind enough to place the sensor.
This discussion has been closed.