Return line leak and automatic water feeder

KnaveP

The automatic water feeder on my boiler shows that it processed 521 gallons of water from Oct 2011. The plumber who installed the system thinks that I have a return line leak which may or may not be the case because there is no water visible on the floor.



The hartford loop for the Burnham IN6 is piped at 21 inches from the base when the installation manual calls for 26 and 5/8 inches off the base. I am telling the plumber that even if the return line leaks, the automatic water feeder should not be opening to process water. I think that the hartford loop is below the low water cutoff level and a leak in the return line will then force the boiler to drain which in turn will kick off the automatic water feeder.



His response was "WE have done many more burnham installations the same way for years if you think you know more than me----if you had 521 gal of water go into your system you would have water coming out of the top floor rad. and that is not happening. you have a return line leak".



My question was then how does the water go through the automatic water feeder and make it to the return line by not going to the boiler? If water is making it hrough the automatic feeder and then to the return line by bypassing the boiler, then it is DEFINITELY piped incorrectly because the return line should not be activating the automatic water feeder.

Any thoughts or feedback?

Jamie Hall

Couple of comments here...

first off, ideally the water feeder should feed into the return line, not directly into the boiler.  But that's minor.  Don't worry about it.



If you have a leak in the return line, the water is going to go out the leak.  Whether the Hartford loop is below the low water cutoff or not is more or less immaterial.  If it is, then the water feeder will feed water, which will go into the boiler, which will flow back through the Hartford loop and out the leak.  It it isn't, then when the boiler steams, the steam will go out, condense, and go through the return line and out the leak -- and the water feeder will have to feed more water.



Does it matter whether it gets to the leak directly or through condensing steam?  Not in my book; lost water is lost water.



Sounds to me as though your plumber is right; somewhere you do indeed have a leak.  Find it and fix it.

Paul48

Replace

the meter, and monitor it for a few days.Or at least monitor the one that's on the system now.

KnaveP

What is the science behind the Hartford Loop?

I am not a plumber but I will say that your analysis missed a point - the reason why Hartford loops exist in the first place. It is meant to keep water in the boiler in event of a return line leak, so the placement of the Hartford loop is VERY material.

Paul48

It

Does nothing to prevent a leak. That's the point.

Jamie Hall

Well now...

The Hartford Loop was designed to prevent the boiler from being catastrophically drained by a leak.  So it is rather important that it be placed so that the boiler won't drain completely in that event; yours is.  Higher might be nicer, but -- it will still hold enough water that the boiler won't go into low orbit.



PROVIDED that somebody or something is keeping an eye on the water level.  A Hartford Loop was never intended to prevent a boiler from being boiled dry by someone who wasn't watching the water level. 



Back in the day it wasn't all that uncommon for a return to spring a bad leak; that doesn't happen as much any more (it still does, though, from time to time).  When it did, though, it was possible to drain a boiler fast enough to have it crack before you could pull the fire.  The Hartford Loop prevented that from happening, and was quite effective.  Gave the fireman time to pull the fire and generally set things in order.



Back in the day, though, the fireman watched the water level in the boiler; that was a key part of his job.  That way if there was a slower leak anywhere in the system, the water level dropped and he could go looking for it (if he was responsible; if he wasn't he just piled in more water) and fix it.



Nowadays, though, we have automatic safety devices, since reliable firemen are a little thin on the ground.  They are not a substitute, though, for the owner or operator of the boiler keeping an eye on either the water level (manual feed) or the automatic feeder's counter (automatic feed) to see if there is a leak somewhere.  Further, the Hartford Loop is still valuable, in my view, as a back up to the automatic contraptions in the unlikely event that they fail and you get a bad leak in the return.



Your automatic feeder counter (or your own actions) will tell you that you have a leak, if you do.  Your low water cut off will shut the burner off if that fails.  Your Hartford Loop will save you if you get a genuine break in the return, and the LWCO doesn't work as advertised.

Long Beach Ed

Water Leak

That type of leak and water usage will destroy the IN6 in no time.  I know a guy who says the fresh water will eat a hole in the boiler you could throw a tomcat through.  He's right. 



Find the leak.  The first place to look of course is the new boiler.  Then I'd check the returns, then the steam side of the system.  



You can't let a system lose water like that.  It will eat the boiler for lunch and take your warranty with it. 

KnaveP

Why?

I don't quite understand why the automatic water feeder would have to process that much water unless water was oozing out of the Hartford loop into the return line. My contention is that the Hartford loop is piped incorrectly which makes a bad situation worse. I am thinking that if you pipe a Hartford loop incorrectly, like below the LWCO and like this one, and the return line leaks then the water will just flow through the boiler and into the return line. It would be like NOT having a Hartford loop.



If we look at how the water flows through the system and the mechanisms in place to keep water in the boiler, then you have to agree that the piping is less than desirable or just wrong.

Long Beach Ed

Hartford Loop

The Loop protects and enforces the boiler's water level.  It isolates the wet return so that a leaky return won't permit the water line in the boiler from dropping dangerously low.  Most manufacturers place the nipple in the loop slightly below the normal water line. 



That said, a leaky return will cause you to loose water because returning condensate will spill out of the returns rather than returning to the boiler. 



If the Hartford Loop's nipple is set too low, a leaky return can drain some water out of the boiler also.  But the effect is the same -- a lowered water line which will eventually shut down the boiler or engage the feeder. 



If the feeder is set to feed water above the level of the Loop's nipple, a leaky return will waste water.  It will waste the same amount if it's 2" below the feed level or 4" below the feeding level.  



You have two problems.  First and most important is the bodacious leak in your steam system.  You've fed 500 gallons of makeup water through that system in four months.  This will destroy your boiler and void the warranty.  



If your Hartford Loop was not piped properly -- that is if it does not coincide with the manufacturer's specifications -- and the job is under warranty, it should be corrected by the fitter who installed it improperly.



Sounds like you are angry at the installer and trying to get him to fix a leak that isn't his problem.   The leak is your problem and not his.  The Hartford Loop being piped a couple of inches low has nothing to do with your bodacious water usage. 



Pay the guy to fix your leaky return.

Jamie Hall

As Long Beach says...

Suck it up.  You've got a leak which has nothing to do with the Hartford Loop.  Either you pay somebody to fix that, or pay somebody for a new boiler.  End of story.



Then, if you haven't alienated your plumber, you might be able to get him to change the Hartford Loop.