LWCO tripped AFTER burner shuts off?

ChrisJ

Experimenting

While I don't mind experimenting, in fact I love it maybe this diagram might help.  You will notice my connected load is a hair above 392sqft of EDR if you include the uninsulated runouts to the second floor radiators.  I also have some runouts in a crawlspace that I need to insulate so there is some more radiation tacked on.

I have to assume this has a lot to do with what I am seeing.



My venting arrangement is the result of a few months of work and works beautifully except I want a hair more venting then a Hoffman 1A on one radiator and I want to change another to a TRV.  The Hoffman 4A is on the one main to keep that main from stealing all of the steam when the system just starts producing steam in the beginning.  No matter what I did those 3 radiators got steam before the 2nd main even got hot.  Swapping a Gorton 1 out for the 4A brought everything into balance.



What I didn't note on the diagram is the top bottom radiators which are I think 26 sqft EDR on the second floor have really long runouts, around 20 feet which is why the Hoffman 1As are set to #6 on them.  One or even both of these I would like to swap out for Gorton Cs in the future.

crash2009

I think NBC has got it pegged

Mark and I explained the result, Dave corrected me where nescesary (equalizer doesn't suck, it blends?),  NBC, Gerry, and Ron Jr., explained the cause. 

Loosen the main vent next time it goes into vacuum.  Follow NBC's directions.  Forget about all that other crap until you solve this missing water thing. 

ChrisJ

missing water

Ok,  I'll forget all the other crap until I do some testing.



Anyone know if a vacuum breaker like the one used on the Danfos TRV is available as a separate unit?  I'd think that would be perfect for this.  Its not so easy to loosen that main vent and watch the boiler as they are located in a crawlspace.

crash2009

Bummer man, Crawlspace, yuck!

 Well on the upside there is no spiders and snakes this time of year.  Does it have to be "that vent"  Can't you release the vacuum anywhere NBC?

nicholas bonham-carter

vacuum check

well try the easiest vent to access first, then into the yuck zone of spiders etc.for the others. something is not relieving that vacuum.

 i forgot you had a counter flow. it's so much easier for me, as all the vents are by the boiler in 2 groups.--nbc

ChrisJ

no counterflow

I have Parallel flow but the vents are in the crawlspace.  I have a small basement and 4 crawlspaces (yuck).



The first picture are the three vents on my long main which handles most of the radiators.  The second picture was taken before we bought the house and I started cleaning the mess up.  This shows the main as well as the dry return which drops down to the wet return.  That wet return is all copper now as that one was clogged, was the first painful lessoned I had the 2nd night in the house.



Is it possible I could plug the main vent connection in the crawl space and throw a tee in the vertical drop to the wet keeping it up high return and put my main vents there instead?  They would be FAR easier to access then.  I realize I would be venting the 15 foot dry return, but is it really that much air?  The reason I'm saying in the vertical section is that is copper and easy to work with.  The dry return is iron and I'm not sure if I could get that elbow off.

nicholas bonham-carter

moving vents to non spider location

if i were you, i would certainly move those vents to the ends of the dry returns, and they could be mounted on the vertical drop, but as high as possible. it will be so much easier to check on their operation.--nbc

crash2009

Did a little sketch for ya

Are we seeing the whole picture now?

ChrisJ

Whole picture

Crash, pretty much yeah. Except keep in mind, you show the one dry return connecting to the steam main at the wall. Thats the hole that passes into the crawl space, there is another good 15+ feet past that point.



The other dry return which you filled in on the right side is where everyone including both the electrical inspector and plumbing inspector bangs their head. Everyone sees the steam main and ducks for it not noticing the lower, smaller, darker dry return under / near it.

ChrisJ

downside of moving main vents

What is the downside of moving my main vents from the end of the main over to the end of the dry return other than having to vent that return?  Anything?



I'm just curious as to why they installed them where they did in the first place.  I'm guessing with a 1 1/4 x 1 1/4 x 3/4" tee, two 45 deg elbows some copper pipe, a union, a male adapter and a brass tee I'm all set.  I can install them so they are about a foot above the dry return.  Could probably even fit a Gorton 2 then which I can't now.



Something like this shown in the picture?

crash2009

revised sketch

I added the crawl to the sketch 1.  High on each end with a drain in the middle.  NBC is right again.  That is counterflow under there.  Most of the crawls I have seen around here were returned differently. see sketch 2 

crash2009

Looks good

That might make it work better.  What's everybody else think?

ChrisJ

Negative

The drain is not in the middle and it is not counter-flow.



Note the dry return.

crash2009

I don't see a downside.

  On the upside I only see it helping the condensate get back to the boiler quicker.  This new picture looks like its not counterflow.  My first sketch is incorrect.

crash2009

That looks like an easy crawl,

 you got it carpeted and everything

ChrisJ

cardboard

Ah,



That was because we had just run a new gas line for the kitchen and clothes dryer and neither me or my dad wanted to kneel in dirt.



Being you have a good view of the whole setup, would you move the vents if you were me, or leave them?

nicholas bonham-carter

Vent relocation

Even though that is now a more comfortable crawl space, I would move those vents to the ends of the dry return, so as to be able to see how they are behaving.

I think the back-pressure will even show an improvement, as the remaining air in the unvented section of the returns will not be there to expand and interfere with the steam distribution.--NBC

ChrisJ

DWV fittings

Can I use a drain fitting such as this copper wye to connect my vents into the 1 1/4" copper?



http://www.pexsupply.com/Cello-CD80-20-1-1-4-Cast-Copper-DWV-Y-8979000-p



I'm assuming a wye would be less likely to cause water to head towards the vents than a tee.  I could then reduce the size up higher.





Nicholas,  Another concern I have is I'm only around 29" above NWL at that elbow on the dry return.  This would put the tee for the vents lower than 28" above NWL.  Will this be a problem?  I remember 28" being a number with a large safety factor built in, but I'm still concerned.

Mark N

Wet Return

Chris you have a wet return that runs across the floor, did you replace this return when you replaced the boiler? If not did you clean it out? That return could be holding your water up.

ChrisJ

wet return

Hi Mark,



I replaced that return right before replacing the boiler. The original return was plugged and causing all kinds of problems. I think thats what kinda stunk about buying our first house, it was one problem after another. Though since I put the new boiler in its just been nit picking and fine tuning so we're happy.