Leaking steam radiators

nickdu

I recently moved into a house with steam radiators.  Before moving in we had a bunch of work done to the house.  While most of the existing steam system is original, I did have the plumber do some work, like moving exterior (in room) floor to ceiling pipes into the walls and we also added a radiator on the 3rd floor.  I'm not sure what, if any, effect this has had on the way the system used to work.  Since we started this work on the house before we moved in I don't know how well the system worked originally.



Back to my problem.  Several of the radiators are leaking water through the vent.  In one case the water was coming out like a garden hose left on.  I've read about pipe slope and radiator slope and having the value all the way open, etc.  The plumber, which we like, has been working on it for some time.  He has replaced a run of pipe in the basement which he said wasn't pitched the way it should be.  He also replaced some vents on the radiators.  Each time he comes to try to fix the problem it seems to work pretty good for a couple days after he leaves but then the problem comes back.



One basic question I have is this: Even if my radiator isn't sloped properly, and maybe it's even sloped the wrong way, how could it be that this would cause the water to rise so high in the last fin (not sure what they're called) of the radiator such that it comes out the vent?  It doesn't sound reasonable to me.  Some of the radiators in my house have never had a leaking problem.  My current hypothesis, which I want to pass by you, is that there is a significant enough blockage in the bottom run on the radiator (at least at the last fin) such that when steam is traveling in it prevents the water from traveling back.  Then, based on how high the vent is and how long the boiler runs, you end up filling the last fin such that it reaches the vent and leaks out.



Thanks,

Nick

Jamie Hall

Unlikely...

to be a clog in the bottom of the radiator -- look at how big those passages are!  Remember, though, that steam is condensing everywhere in the radiator, and it is likely that what you are seeing is that condensate; there can be a lot of it.  That doesn't mean it should happen, though -- it shouldn't.



At least two possibilities: first, the vents themselves may be tired.  This happens.  You may need to clean or replace them.  The other, which is easy, is to check your maximum pressure (the pressuretrol) at the boiler; it should not be more than 2 psi cutout, and preferaby a little less (if the pressuretrol is additive, the main setting should be about 0.7 to 1.0, and the differential the same; if it is subtractive, the main should be at 1.5, and the differential about 0.7 -- for starters).



That's something you can look at today!

Abracadabra

repiped risers

Did your plumber use the same size pipe when the risers were moved, or did he downsize the pipe to save money?  Were takeoffs repiped with proper pitch? 

nickdu

Leaking steam radiators

nickdu

repiped risers

I was wondering about the diameter of the new piping that was used.  Honestly I'm not sure of the answer here.  Firstly I'm not sure what the size of the pipe was originally.  It was cast iron and I would guess somewhere around 1 1/2 " to 2" diameter.  The plumber replaced it with copper.  I'm guessing the new pipes are smaller but I'm not sure.  I will ask the plumber the next time he comes by.

I'm not sure what you mean by takeoffs.  Are you referring to the pipe I mentioned he replaced in the basement that he said wasn't pitched enough?  If so, I'll have to check on that.



In addition, I was wondering whether it was a good idea to move the pipes into the wall.  Some of the walls are exterior walls so when it's very cold outside I can imagine that as soon as the steam hits the pipe it could condense very quickly.  Having the pipes in the room would keep them at room temperature.



Thanks,

Nick

nickdu

Unlikely...

The plumber has checked some of the vents, I believe, and has put some new ones in.  One of the radiators which was leaking through the vent had a new varivalve installed on it.



I did check the pressure setting on the boiler.  It appears to be set to somewhere between .3 and .4 kg/cm2 which comes out to, if my math is correct, somewhere between 4.2 and 5.6 PSI.  I gave the kg/cm2 reading as the PSI side jumped from 2 to 8 with some notches in between.  I have never seen the pressure gauge read over 1 PSI, but then again I'm not standing around watching it often.  The next time the radiators are leaking I will make a point to check the PSI.



However, I'm still trying to understand why large amounts of water would leak through the vent, even if the pressure is higher than it should be.



Thanks,

Nick

elfie

rad leaks

is it a one pipe system?



i was alittle confused about the PSI setting - what is the PSI reading when burner cuts off?



does leaking occur after system is warmed up?



what types of venting exist elsewhere on the system?



always fun to see a pic of the rad and vent



so much water coming out of vents (i think its alot more than just condensing going on) - maybe returns are messed up and water is backing up inside rads

Jamie Hall

Oh dear...

I see two problems here.  That pressure setting -- your math does seem about right -- is much too high.  Most vents will cease to work right at about 3 psi.  You want to dial that right down to about 2 psi cutout and 1 psi cutin, if you can.



Second, though, is the new risers.  If they are copper, they will condense more steam than iron would have -- and if they are smaller, the condensation will be carried up and into the radiators much more readily.  Remember that the velocity in a pipe is related to the square of the diameter -- so if you go from 1 1/2", say, to 3/4", the steam inside is going to be going four times as fast -- not twice as fast.  This could be the source of a lot of the trouble...

Abracadabra

problems

Here's what I have gathered.

#1 - Your plumber may have replaced the old black iron pipe with a smaller diameter of copper for the risers.  Problem #1, copper is not used for steam.  Problem #2, The smaller diameter pipe will not support the original EDR of the radiators attached to that riser. Problem #3, if the riser was not insulated the steam will condense.  Steam will push condensate up the riser easier now since the pipe is smaller.

#2 - Your pressuretrol is set to cut out at about 5psi.  This is enough to push water up pretty well (about 11 feet if my math is correct). Reduce your pressuretrol and/or get a vaporstat a nd run the system at about 10 oz.

The takeoff is the part in the basement that comes off the main to feed the riser. 

nickdu

rad leaks

It's a one pipe system.  With regard to the PSI when the system shuts off, I'll have to check that next time it's running.  However, I assume it could shut off for a couple reasons, right?  It could hit the pressure limit or the thermostat could shut it off.



I was wondering myself whether this only occurred first thing in the morning when the system was cold.  I can't say for sure.  I'll have to pay more attention to it.  My guess is that it does happen either always or more often first thing in the morning.



I'm still trying to rationalize this.  You say that maybe there is more going on because of the volume of water coming out of the vent and that maybe we have a problem with the returns.  However, even if one of the returns in the basement was off by say 2" over a 12' span, that would just make it such that the water would build up 2" or so before it started to return back to the boiler, right?  I realize that might cause some other problems like noise, inefficient heating, maybe even no heating (which is not what I'm noticing), pushing of water into the radiators, etc.  But even if it pushed water which was built up in the pipes into the radiator, I'm still having a hard time figuring out why I'm getting so much leaking out the vent, unless for some reason that last fin is full of water up to the vent.



By the way, when I get leaking I do hear water noises in the radiator.  I can hear sloshing and bubbling (like steam passing through water).  I don't always hear it in the radiators that cause problems so maybe it is just first thing in the morning as we're warming up the cold pipes and radiators.

All the vents were the older type I guess.  Not sure which name they go by.  Those roundish puck-like shapes.  Since we've had the problem the plumber has replaced some with varivalves.



Thanks,

Nick

nickdu

problems

Interestingly, copper is used, and it appears somewhat original, from the main line coming out of the boiler and also the return at the boiler is copper.  All of the pipes in the basement coming off this copper is cast iron I guess.



I believe the copper pipes put in the walls was insulated.



How do I change the PSI?  I tried just moving the slider which indicates the setting but it doesn't seem to move.  I do see a screw on top.  Might that be an adjustment screw?



Thanks,

Nick

elfie

turn the screw on top

yes turn the screw on top and the slidey thing will move up or down.



try moving it lower (do things gradually)



also, great to see a pic of rad and psi setting and maybe a few great vacation pics



maybe its like a pot of water boiling over with the lid on top

Rod

Lower the Pressure & Change the Vent

Hi- As to water in the radiators-  The high pressure entering the radiator is holding (preventing)  the condensate (water) from leaving the radiator so you are getting build up of water at the steam entrance to the radiator. The incoming steam has to force its way through the water and as it does it picks up water droplets and carries them out the vent hole.  You also mentioned "Varivents". These are notorious for spitting water as unlike most radiator vents, they don't have a float valve to prevent water from escaping the vent. (see attached vent diagram) 

Your steam pressure is 300% too high. Adjust the pressure to a maximum of 2 PSI and change the vent to one that has a float valve and that should go a long way toward solving the "spitting" problem.

- Rod

nicholas bonham-carter

Bullets and cat food cans

I would look at your main vents, after you have reduced your pressure to below 1.5 psi (6 ounces even better), and replace all the radiator vents with rod's bullets. For you a vaporstat would be a good investment along with a 0-3psi gauge, so you can verify the pressure. The desired result is the removal of air at start-up from the main vents primarily--not the radiators.

Send us a picture of the top of that riser, and of the boiler piping, and we will go from there.--nbc

nickdu

Leaking steam radiators

I've got several pieces of new information including pictures.



It just so happened that I had company over last night so I ended up sleeping in the basement.  To keep myself warm and as a test for the radiators I changed the thermostat to go down only to 68 at night and to 72 in the morning.  In addition to keeping me warm at night I figured it would also reduce the likelyhood of a leaking radiator since it appears the leaking is more prevelant first thing in the morning because the house is much colder.

 

When I woke up I noticed the boiler was running.  I checked the PSI.  It was at 3.  The boiler stayed on for a while longer eventually getting up to about 6 PSI.  At that point I decided to turn off the boiler while I searched for a screwdriver to lower the PSI setting.  By the way, no radiator leaked even though the PSI was very high so maybe that's in line with the house not being that cold and thus condendate was being generated at a lesser rate.  I did lower the PSI to 2 so we'll see that happens going forward.  I'll reprogram the thermostat so the setting is 65 at night.  I'll also replace the vents on all the radiators with the better ones you guys have suggested.



Let me explain the pictures now, left to right top to bottom.

 

The first one is the boiler.  It's a Weil McClain PEG 45.



The second one shows the copper source and return at the boiler.



The third is just more stuff.



The fourth shows one of the runs from the boiler and how it loops back as a return.  Also in this one you can see where the plumber replaced part of a run with copper.



The fifth shows another main run from the boiler.  It cuts across our finished basement.  It's not insulated as we use it to heat the basement.  This run is a bit odd.  I think the plumber expected this to slope back to the boiler as he mentioned it has negative pitch.  However, I'm wondering whether it's supposed to be that way because it, like the other main runs from the boiler are loops and the other end of it is the return.



The sixth is a close-up of the far corner in the fifth.  It shows where the plumber replaced existing with copper as part of the effort to move the pipes into the wall.



The seventh show another place where the plumber replaced with copper for the in-wall effort.  This copper does look significantly smaller.



The eigth shows one of the radiators which has been leaking.



I've got one new question.  We added a third floor radiator.  One of my hypothesis as to why we were getting all of this leaking was that we increased the volume so much that the boiler was not big enough to handle the load.  You see ever since we added the third floor radiator we've noticed the automatic 'filler' on the boiler kick in and add water to the boiler.  My thinking was that the water got so low because of the new volume added that the automatic water adder kicked in.  Then when the water condensed and returned the boiler was overful.  The next cycle then pushed a bunch of water through the system.  Now I know this isn't totally true because we've had leaking after I turned off the third floor radiator.  However, we've only started hearing the automatic water 'filler' kick in since we've added the third floor radiator (I believe).



Thanks,

Nick

Long Beach Ed

Ouch

This is one of the worst piping jobs we've seen. 



You might get it to work if you keep the pressure very, very low.  This may require a new vaporstat.  It's worth a try.



But honestly, if that doesn't work,  you'll have to spend some serious cash to rip out all that bad work and repipe it the proper way. 

elfie

poor piping

would love to hear some critique of the piping



seems some header piping is off and the soldering of copper pipes probably is not good

Rod

Pictures

Hi- Ok... not quite sure where to start.  I’m afraid to say your boiler piping is pretty sub standard. Copper for steam pipes is a “no-no” and you don’t have a header.  The purpose of the header is to dry the steam out by removing  water from the steam.  Without a header, a lot of water is being carried up into your system and that combined with the high pressure is causing your “water” problems. Wet Steam is also very inefficient and  this doesn’t help you fuel bills at all. Here’s a link to a video of Dan’s on the importance of near boiler piping.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/107/Steam-Heating/118/Steam-boiler-near-boiler-piping



Attached the I&O Manual for your boiler. Look on page 14 and you will find the specs for the near boiler piping. These are “minimums”.  Attached a picture of your model boiler that was recently installed by Chris J.



I’ve also  attached several of you pictures with notes.

Questions:

1. On Picture # 6 - What are “A” and “B” ?  Do these each  go to individual radiators?

2. On Picture #2 - What are “X” and “Y” ?  If the are returns then they shouldn’t join until they are well below the level of the boiler’s waterline.

3. Where are the main vents installed”



I see Ed has already replied to you. He is very experienced with steam and it might be an idea to try his suggestion about using a vaporstat and lowering the pressure way down. At least that might hold you over till spring when you can then decide on what you need to do with the piping.  If you need more info on vaporstats let me know and I’ll send it to you.

- Rod

Rod

Pictures

Pictures with notes-

For some reason I can't get the pictures to load as jpgs will try it as a pdf file

Abracadabra

near boiler piping

Ya, what Ed said.  whoever piped that should be shot.







http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/products/discontinued/discontinued-boilers/eg-peg-egh-boiler/egpegegh3manual.pdf

Page 11.

Manufacturer's recommended riser 2.5", recommended header (which you are missing) 2.5"

There's a reason for their recommendations and you've run across one of the reasons.

nickdu

Pictures

Thanks for the info.



In picture 2, yes, A & B each supply a single radiator (I believe).  One I believe is the exposed pipe that went floor to ceiling in the first floor for one of the second floor bedroom radiators.  That was moved into the wall and I believe one of the pipes is that.  The other I believe is for the new radiator we added in the third floor.



In picture 2, yes, X and Y are both returns.



I don't know what "main vents" are, sorry.



Thanks,

Nick

nickdu

Expert in my area?

If I want to find an expert in my area (Chatham NJ), can anyone recommend one?  Should I just assume the 'Find A Contractor' page on this site will give me what I'm looking for?  I did that and clicked on 'Looking for a steam expert' and it did list some contractors.



Thanks,

Nick

Rod

Main Vents

Hi - Steam systems have what are know as "Main Vents" whose job it is to

allow the air in the steam mains and piping to escape. They are similar

to the vents on the radiators but have much greater venting capacity.

On a 1 pipe steam system They are usually located either on the returns

or on the steam mains after the farthest away from the boiler radiator

lateral.  Attached are two models of main vents. The Big bullet one is a

Hoffman #75 and the tuna can on its side is a Gorton.   Check your

piping an see if you have mains vents. There should be a minimum of one

main vent on each steam main/return loop. The "old rule"is "Vent you

mains quickly (large capacity vents) and your radiators slowly!" (small

capacity vents)  Without adequate main vents the burden for all the

venting is put on the radiator vents which causes a lot of problems.



Do you have any of Dan's steam books? If not I would recommend you get:



1. "We Got Steam Heat!"



     http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Steam-Heating-Books/25/61/We-Got-Steam-Heat-A-Homeowners-Guide-to-Peaceful-Coexistence



2. "Greening  Steam"



http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Steam-Heating-Books/25/158/Greening-Steam-br-How-to-Bring-19th-Century-Heating-Systems-into-the-21st-Century-i-and-save-lots-of-green-i



3. "The Lost Art of Steam Heating"



http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Steam-Heating-Books/25/68/Lost-Art-Of-Steam-Heating







 I would recommend you read "We Got Steam Heat ! " first as it is a good

introduction and explains all the terminology. These books are written

so the homeowner who is new to steam heating can understand them. They

are packed with pictures and diagrams and are easy, humorous reading and

a couple of night of reading will put you light years ahead in your

knowledge of steam heating. These books will save you a lot of money. 

I'm sure any on who has read them will agree with me on this.



- Rod



Had to add the Hoffman 75 as a pdf

nickdu

Main vents

I have three main loops and only one has a vent on it.  It's a Gorton #6.  Picture 1 has one loop going off into the distance at the top middle of the picture and comes back into the picture from the right at the top.  In picture 2 the loop goes off to the left and then returns underneath itself.  In picture 3 the loop goes off into the distance and returns back under itself.  Loop 3 has the vent on it. 



I was thinking of purchasing those books so I understand the system.  I figured that would help me maintain the system better.



Thanks,

Nick

Rod

Pictures

Hi Nick- Thanks for posting the pictures.They are a big help.  Could you take some more but stand farther back this time.  What I'm trying to do is to trace out where the piping goes and how each connects to the boiler and if you can shoot the boiler from different sides farther back that would help too. We can blow up the pictures if we need to see detail.  I see the vent in the 3rd picture . It looks like a Gorton #1 rather than a # 6. They get hard to read when they have been there a while.



Gorton makes two sizes of main vents, a # 1 and a #2. The #2 has almost 4 times the venting capacity of the Gorton #1.  How well are  the radiators on the loop with the main vent working?   I think at this point I would think about:

1. Replacing  the Pressuretrol with a Vaporstat. (You can use the Pressuetrol as a high limit safety cutoff to backup the vaporstat)

2. Add a 0-3 PSI gauge as the 0-30 PSI gauge isn't easy to see slight changes of low pressure.  The 0-30 PSI gauge needs to be left in place as it is required by code/insurance regs.

(It is 0-30 PSI as it has to be able to measure twice the blow off pressure of the safety valve with opens at 15 PSI)

3. Add individual main vents to each of the steam mains. (We can show how to calculate the size you need)

4. Change the Varivents on the radiators to vents with floats. The Varivents are huge capacity vents and were probably installed to try to compensate for the lack of main venting. The balance of your system and water problems should be a lot better with smaller capacity vents with floats.



These are all progressive changes that need to be done to improve your system and will carry over if and when you reconfigure other parts of your system.

Getting "the books" will be a great help as we can refer you to page number when you have a question.  Steam is a bit confusing at first but is really easy to understand once you know the basics.

- Rod

nickdu

Pictures

I've included a couple more pictures.  Unfortunately the unfinished area is not that big and also very cluttered so getting a far enough away shot is somewhat difficult.  By the way, all the radiators are warm this morning, no noise and no leaking.  Looks like reducing the pressure has made a huge difference.  I would still like to get the system done right if possible so if one of you experts is in my area and wants to take it on let me know, or if you know of someone let me know.



Also, I watched some of the video in the link you provided about the near boiler piping.  In that, two pipes come out of the boiler and go up to a header.  You'll notice in the my pictures there is only one pipe coming from the top of the boiler.  Is there a connection point for another one under the boiler frame?  Just wondering whether I might have an older model that's different.



Now let me explain the pictures, top to bottom left to right. 



Picture 1 shows, hopefully, three main loops.  One goes off into the wall behind the boiler near the flu and returns from the far wall behind the boiler.  I'll call that main 1.  The second one, main 2, comes toward us and returns underneath itself.  I think this one only services two radiators, one in the kitchen and one in a second floor bedroom (bedroom E).  The third one, main 3, goes off to the left and returns underneath itself.  It services another kitchen radiator, a dining room radiator, and a second floor bedroom radiator (bedroom N).



Picture 2 shows a close up shot of picture 1.



Picture 3 shows main 1 looping through the finished area of the basement.  There are three pipes coming off this (in the far corner) which service a living room radiator, a second floor bedroom radiator (bedroom J), and a third floor radiator.



Picture 4 shows main 1 looping through the laundry room and heading back to the boiler.  In this part it services the foyer radiator and a second floor bedroom radiator (bedroom P).  On its way back to the boiler it also has a pipe feeding the second floor bathroom.  Wow, main 1 services 6 of the 11 radiators.  Not sure if they are supposed to be more balanced.  Maybe you just need to balance the venting based on load?



Picture 5 shows main 2.  Not sure this is useful.



Picture 6 shows the only main vent on main 3.  I don't see a #1 or #2 on it.  Other than product and company information I see a V and a 6.



The radiators on main 3, the main with the vent, are working ok, I haven't noticed that they are any better or worse than the other radiators.  Two of the three radiators on that main are ones that have leaked.  Those two, but not only those two, have also been noisy.



Thanks,

Nick

Rod

Boiler Ports

Hi Nick- Glad to hear that your system is running better.  6 PSI is really way too much pressure. The Empire State building gets along on 3 PSI! Here’s a good link on speed of steam and steam pressure.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/348/Pressure/263/The-Speed-of-Steam

A lot of people think that if you aren’t getting enough steam in a radiator all you have to do is up the pressure. Crazy as it sounds steam travels faster at lower pressures which means heat is delivered faster to a radiator when you lower the pressure.  Two pipe vapor steam systems operate very low  pressure (4 to 8 ounces) A one pipe steam can’t get that low and ho low it can operate depends on how well the system has been piped /designed. Each 1 pipe system needs to be adjusted individually just to see how low a pressure it can operate properly. 2 PSI is considered the upper maximum but most 1 pipe systems can operate at a maximum of 1 ½ PSI



 Boiler piping- Steam boilers are made of individual sections (like slices of bread) which are then bolted together to form the boiler. In the same model type, the small boiler have the same sections as a large boiler. The difference is that the larger boilers just have more sections (slices)

If you look on page 14 of your boiler’s I&O manual (Installation and Operation) you will see that there are several diagrams of boiler piping. The diagram for the smaller boilers uses one riser pipe and the larger boilers (second diagram) use two riser pipes so it is a pretty good bet that the smaller boiler has two boiler ports but is only using one port. In the case of you boiler it does have two steam ports. Look at the picture of Chris J’s boiler I posted above. His is the same model/size boiler as yours but he is using both boiler steam ports.  I’m sure you’re now thinking “Why then did the boiler manufacturer then suggest using only one steam port on your model?”  

The probable answer  is because this is the  minimum piping configuration that will still operate satisfactorily. If your read the instruction on page 14 in the I&O  manual, you will see the word”minimum” used a lot. Why use the minimums?  Probably because the boiler manufacturer’s know they have to compete for the minimum bid so they spec out the installation for the minimum material and labor.  Why use the two boiler ports?   Using two cuts the velocity of the steam exiting the boiler in half. Slower exit velocity means less water carried up into the piping resulting in dryer steam.  As others maybe reading this I might mention there are some boilers like Slantfin and Smith which are designed to only have one boiler port which is usually huge to accommodate the steam velocity. ( I might mention that all the above is explained  much better by Dan in his steam books)

A lot of the advice you will get from the Wall (like using a vaporstat rather than a pressuretrol) is geared towards achieving “the optimum” rather than “the minimum” as with rising fuel prices the optimum will give you better fuel economy (and comfort)

 Thanks for posting the new pictures. I haven’t had a chance to really look them over as yet.

- Rod

Rod

Possible New Piping Layout

Hi Nick- I think I finally got your mains and returns figured out. You really don't seem to have a real return on your Main #1 as there appears to be a radiator lateral connected close what i labeled as the end of that main. The best thing would be to then to connect a drip pipe (return) from the end of the main straight down to the floor. This could be angled a bit if necessary using 45 degree elbows (for clearance of boiler or other piping) but should not have any horizontal piping as it does now. All drip (return) connections from the mains and/or the returns should connect well below the boiler's waterline preferably on or close to the floor. Since main #1 has a lot of radiators connected to it it should have its own riser pipe from the header with Main #2 & 3 on a second riser pipe.

I attached a couple of noted pictures and a possible layout for new piping.

- Rod

elfie

header piping

a great response



would it be possible to get more clarification on the piping layout to the 3 mains based on the single pipe coming out of boiler



seems the pipe coming up from boiler should be connected to a horizontal header pipe and then whave one or two pipes extending upward from this horizontal pipe which would support the 3 mains



also, would it be worth installing a second pipe to extend from the boiler (vs only one being used now)?  seems the quality of steam would be better (maybe more efficient?) and how hard to do given the other piping work thats needed?

nickdu

Possible New Piping Layout

First of all, thank you for the time and effort you put into this.  You do have the mains figured out exactly.



I did purchase the three Dan Holohan books that were suggested.  Haven't received them yet of course.  I figured those will help me understand and maintain the system better.  I don't plan on tackling this project myself but instead want to get an expert in here.



Speaking of experts, are any of you in my area (Chatham, NJ)?  I asked before and didn't get a response.  I wasn't sure if that meant I was violating any of the site rules.  If so, sorry.  I also mentioned that I used the links on the site to find a contractor.  After clicking on the link and selecting 'I'm looking for a steam expert' I was presented with a number of contractors.



Thanks,

Nick

nickdu

My plan

Since things are working pretty well since I reduced the pressure I decided to just address the basics.  My plan is to replace all the radiator vents with new ones.  All will be ones with floats as you guys have suggested.  I'll also replace the main vents.  Surprisingly I found another main vent.  As I was figuring out where I would put the main vent I noticed something that I hadn't noticed before.  Upon closer inspection it was a vent.  I've included a picture of it.  I'm not even sure the main vents are working.  I assume I should hear some noise from them when the system is running, like the air escaping through them.  I hear nothing.  I'm guessing both aren't working.  I also plan to add a low pressure control to the boiler.  I think that should be enough to get things working pretty well.



I have ordered the Dan Holohan book set though I haven't received them yet.  I assume the books will explain what type/size of vents to use and how to balance the system such that the radiators heat evenly.  For instance, I'm guessing that maybe the vents farthest away should be larger than vents closer.

 

Pictures (top to bottom, left to right)



Picture 1: This is the main 1 vent that I just found.



Picture 2: A close up of main 1 vent.  I was hoping I could read some of the info on the back but I can't make it out.  I guess it doesn't matter.  I'll be able to calculate the size of the vent that I should put there.



Picture 3: The vent on main 3, which I guess is also venting main 2.



Picture 4: The side of the boiler with all the controls.  I guess this is where the additional pressure control would go.



Thanks,

Nick

Rod

Checking Main Vents

Hi Nick- Both the vents on steam main #1 and #3 are Gorton #1 s.  To test them - Use a strip of newspaper and holding one end, hold the other end near the vent hole to detect escaping air movement. This will stop when steam reaches the vent and it closes.

DO NOT use your bare hand to try to detect steam!  Steam burns aren't fun!

- Rod

nickdu

Looking to make some repairs before the cold weather sets in

It's been a while.  I haven't done anything to my system but am now thinking of getting things done before the cold weather sets in.  However I got an estimate to do the near boiler piping the correct way and also install a vaporstat and it was way more than I expected.



As I've been looking into this again I did come up with another question.  I hear people refer to a header, which I think I have a handle on.  But I've also heard people refer to a drop header.  Is a drop header where the pipes coming from the ports go up and then go through two 90 degree elbows such that the header is lower than the height of the pipe from the port?  If so, is this only done when you don't have enough space if the header was put at the 'A' dimension and then the risers were off of that?



Can someone comment on the ease, or lack thereof, of installing a vaporstat yourself.  I'm talking about a homeowner doing it, someone who is not a plumber.  Someone with mechanical ability.



Thanks,

Nick

BobC

More expensive but better

A drop header is more expensive in material but easier to plumb because it gives you more flexibility in hooking up to the steam main. It will do a great job of supplying nice dry steam.  If you search "drop header" you should pull up some examples.



I installed a vaporstat on my boiler 3 years ago and added a low pressure gauge at the same time. That allowed me to reduce the pressure from 24 oz down to 12 oz. In my case the pressuretrol was getting flaky so it had to be replaced. It took about a half hour to do the work. It will pay for itself in fuel savings IF your boiler cycles on pressure a lot, otherwise it really wont do a lot for you. The key is to make sure you buy the right one, you need one that breaks the circuit on pressure rise.



Bob

Enreynolds

Vaporstat

Assuming that you are looking for a 0-16 oz. Range, you will want the Honeywell L408J 1009, which can be wired to make or break on rise.  Please refer to this thread for more info.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/142643/Uhhh-Which-Vaporstat

nickdu

Drop header

Thanks for the info.  I'll do some searching on drop headers.  Am I right though about the drop header?  I drew two quick pictures of what I think a header and a drop header are.  Is the drop header only used if you don't have enough room to get the A dimension and then go from there to the mains?

Thanks,

Nick

nicholas bonham-carter

List of improvements by priority

These are things which any reasonably handy person could do himself, although for the amateur, the big factor is the time out of service for anything complicated like the header repiping.

1.put on an accurate low pressure gauge, next to the present pressuretrol, so you can see what the system is doing, and turn the pressure down as far as you can. A vaporstat will be a big improvement here.

2.add additional main (not rad) vents. I don't know about your headroom, but gorton #2's are best. While venting is going on at the beginning of the cycle, you will see very little back-pressure on the new gauge (2 ounces), when you have enough venting capacity.

3.repipe the header (next spring?), in black iron. You can buy precut and threaded nipples at a good plumbing distributor. Follow the instructions in the manual for your boiler at a minimum, and of course using the drop-header configuration is best. This will produce drier steam. You may even find a retired plumber who could help with the assembly, if he has experience with a wrench-not a soldering torch! Generally, you will dry fit all the pipes tiger without using a wrench so as to be able to return the unneeded nipples. Once you have every thing assembled dry, then you can take it apart and reassemble with dope, and tape using the wrenches. To give yourself an idea of the material cost, draw out the layout, and make up the list of lengths and fittings, and go shopping. Most of the cost is labor, and gas for frequent trips to the supply house for a different size. When you are done, you will have a great feeling of accomplishment. The silence of the newly corrected steam system will be deafening! If you ever sell the house, the buyers will not be able to knock you down on the price as they would do know with the present state of your system. Don't forget to skim the system clean afterwards, and insulate the pipes.--NBC

Dave in QCA

Diagram of a Drop Header

You have the drop header drawn correclty, but the standard header is wrong.  Here is a really good diagram of a drop header.  A drop head can be used on any system.  They help remove water droplets and carryover thus making very dry system.  They also are very useful when there is not enough distance between the water line of the boiler and the steam main for the building.  In these cases, a riser going 24" above the water line is above the building mains, so a drop head makes it possible to connect properly.