First Home, New to Steam, Need Assistance- Arco K?

JayinCT

Hi All-

I've been monitoring this wall for some time, and I am hoping to be as lucky as so many others have been with obtaining your expert guidance and input. I am a new homeowner, my first. The house has steam heat. So I bought Dan's book for newbies, read it cover to cover, wanted to learn how these things work. Hooked. Got cold out in October, boiler (oil) kicked on, only half the house's radiators warmed up. I tried to adjust the control valves on the input line to each radiator- most were stuck- thinking they were stuck shut as steam was definitely coming right up the supply line to each radiator. Elbow grease, got most of them to rotate open. No dice. Still half the house had cold radiators. Noticed one of the radiators had an open supply valve, red hot supply line, and red hot condensate line, yet radiator was ice cold. Scratched head. Came here, read just about every post and picture, bought Dan's bible (LOAST), and I think I can now confirm the following: House was built in 1934, boiler was replaced about 3-4 years ago as well as the piping around it. Mains and risers had the asbestos insulation removed on about half the mains and risers; the other half appear to still have it wrapped (hmm). Radiators have no traps, hex bolt on the supply valve and "arco" stamped on the side of the radiators leads me to believe (along with a return line parallel to the main and a wet return) that I have an Arco K vapor system. There are 3 Hoffman 75's venting the air- two on the main that goes to the right side of the house; one for the main that goes to the left side. Left side has insulation and all radiators supplied by the left main get warm; right side does not. The problem with the right side is that steam enters the dry return line via a loop at the end of the main and hits the 2 hoffmans before all the cold air is pushed out of the radiators, trapping the steam in there. I will post pics shortly, but my question is 1) Does anyone know of a good heating expert in/near Fairfield County, CT that has experience with Arco Vapor? Already had one "knucklehead" come in and tell me to jack the pressure up and put air valves on every non-working radiator. Then try to sell me a conversion to forced air. And 2) could this be a case of old piping with a coal boiler or a water line issue, and the new boiler install is adversely affecting the RH side loop, or perhaps an insulation issue? I plan to get all the supply pipes insulated but I worry that it may not be the only issue here.

Thank you all in advance for reading this far and for your input.

JayinCT

Edit/clarification

sorry for the typos- #1) i meant LAOST, and #2) cold air, not steam, is of course being trapped in the radiators. I should mention that the dry return gets extremely hot and even when it drops to the floor level it gets "steam-hot" right up to the boiler return piping.

gerry gill

we could probably help you out

with some pictures of the boiler, the pressure control, and the height of the boilers water in comparison to the height of the wet return pipe...sounds like you are running to much pressure just for starters..should be ounces only.. also any 'modern' radiator valve replacement would allow steam to blow into the return..they would need orifices in the unions..

JayinCT

PIcs

Thanks Gerry (by the way I hail from your area). Attached are quite a few pics - hope they help. I'll try to add some commentary for each pic:

1) boiler, 2) steam to return--> LH side ("good side") of house, 3) Wet return/hoffman for LH side of house, 4) Boiler/wet return, 5) Hoffmans for RH side of house, 6) corner of steam main for RH side of house where it loops; one pipe to air vents, other to front of house, 7) pressuretrol, 8) radiator supply valve (all 17 radiators in then house have this same valve)







Thank you again- I'd really like to get this working like it was designed to!

Steamhead

Loop Seals are your problem

they were installed so the drops from the steam main and the dry return connect at a point which was below the waterline of the original boiler, but is now above the waterline of your present one.So there is no more water standing in those loop seals.



You'll have to have them repiped so they connect closer to the floor, but that will solve your problem.

JayinCT

A Ha

Steamhead and Gerry, thank you so much. I had a suspicion that may be the case (I was hunting all over the place for traps, wondering if I had a condensate line clog or something) and I kept looking at those loops. I measured and both loops are at around 47" from the floor; the water level in the "new" boiler gauge is around 31"!! I still don't understand why one main/air vent side seems to work while the other doesn't. I suppose the smaller loop (the one that works- only about 8 rads on that side) permits most of the air to get out before the steam hits the air vent while the other loop is larger so it can't get away with it? I followed the heat traveling along the main and found it odd that in loop #1 (the bad side of the house) the steam went toward the vent so quickly instead of continuing first along the main. Oh well. I wil contact the company that installed the boiler and new plumbing to ask them to revisit- they were already here once and said it was because the steam valves on the rads were frozen or clogged. One add'l question for you guys- I plan to have the mains insulated- in this system should I also have the dry returns insulated? Again, cannot thank you enough.

gerry gill

you could insulate

returns but they usually weren't unless they traveled thru a crawl space, or a windward exterior wall..you get the idea..i agree with steamhead that the wet return and its seals must either be lowered or perhaps a false water line may work for you easier.

JayinCT

Thank you

Thanks! More questions (sorry I am a newbie but getting smarter on steam every minute I spend here)- at the base of the one loop seal there is a horizontal pipe that splits off and runs across half the wall (behind the oil tank and an old well water tank) and leads to a vertical pipe, the top of which has 1 of the 2 hoffman air vents. So if the loop need to be dropped below the boiler waterline, does the entire horizontal pipe need to drop, or can the horizontal pipe stay at the same level, only the loop will have to drop lower (the horizintal pipe would essentially bifurcate the pipe)?

Also I am still looking for suggestions/referrals on good heating experts in my geographic area. I can't afford to not have this work done the right way the first time.

Jamie Hall

Amazing...

how much havoc a lowered water line can cause...



On the question in the your last post, without looking at it I couldn't be sure, but my guess is that the entire horizontal pipe will have to drop, but only far enough to get it below the new water line.



I don't know of anyone right in Fairfield County, but there are some guys in New York who are very good, and you might be able to persuade Charles Garrity, who works out of Lee, MA, to come down.  He's excellent.  Look in Find a Contractor, searching by state to get more info.



On pressure -- the Arcos, like most vapor systems, run on ounces.  You probably will have to get a vaporstat rather than a pressuretrol (or in addition to...) to control the system at the right pressures -- but the first thing to do is restore those loop seals.

JayinCT

Still Puzzled

Steamhead, and all, thank you again. I went back and re-read LAOST page 235 where Dan speaks of this very problem. But I am staring at the loop seal and I think? I have a wrinkle to add. As I mentioned, at the base of the loop seal there is a fitting where a horizontal pipe splits off and heads to a vertical pipe connected to the air vents. The loop seal itself actually isn't a termination of the steam main or solely a connection to the dry return. It drops down, connects to the horizontal pipe headed to the vents, but also comes back up and starts along the front of the house where the pipe diameter expands and there are a bunch of risers leading to second floor rads. The main continues along and actually meets up with the main that split off from the boiler and went to the other side of the house. So my point is of that horizontal pipe and the base of the loop were filled with water (as they are now below the water line) wouldn't it prevent the steam from continuing up the loop and along the front of the house and supplying those second floor rads? Or should the main stop supplying steam at the loop seal, and the main from the other side of the house take care of those rads at the front on the home. Really showing my ignorance here, but I am trying to learn this trapless system and I thank you guys again for your help. Also, picture 6 - of the loop behind the oil tank - shows what I am talking about. The pipe coming right at you is the main that eventually expands into a larger pipe and feeds the rads at the front of the house.

Jamie Hall

At this point...

I really think you need a pro to come look at this thing...  However, it was not uncommon for the ends of two steam mains to drip into a common wet return -- and perhaps for the associated dry return to drip into the wet return as well.  Which we return has, however, to stay wet or bad things happen.  Does that horizontal pipe at the end of the seal we are talking about here go anywhere except to another vertical pipe up to the vent?

JayinCT

Yes

THe horizontal pipe runs to another T- the vertical offshoot goes to the hoffman trap; with a connection to other dry return piping that also has a hoffman trap. The other run from the t continues horizontally for another 4 or 5 feet, at which point it drops to the floor, running along the perimeter until it gets to the boiler piping (pipe painted white at the wall/floor junction in pics 1 and 3). I don't disagree- I need a pro here. Will continue to troll the Need a Contractor section and see who is willing to travel to my location- there is no one nearby on the board.

Jamie Hall

The rest of that pipe, then

is a wet return -- or was.  And it needs to be wet -- that is, solidly below the water level of the boiler under all conditions.



For a steam man -- have you tried Charles Garrity, up in Lee, Massachusetts?

JayinCT

Thanks

Put a call in Jamie, Thank You. Although its 100mi away i'll keep my fingers crossed. To be honest, I am humbled that I can't figure this out given the amount of time I've spent staring at the basement piping and following the heat along the main.