Wooden Ductwork!

Harvey Ramer

I went on a service call today to make the electrical connections for an outdoor wood furnace that the Homeowner installed himself. The furnace is sitting 1' close to the house and the hot air ducts protrude staight through a piece of 2" styrofoam that is jammed in an open doorway. the duct work (connected directly to the furnace) is made of plywood with painted steel around the outside. I did everything, short of tapping his head with a 2X4, to convince him that this is an extreme fire hazard. Wood has a spontaneous combustion temp of 575F. Is this going to catch fire during normal operation or will it take a boiler malfunction?



He refuses to listen because the guy who sold him the furnace told him it's ok. What is one to do in a situation like this? He has a house full of little kids!!!

rockhound57

Report it

I hate tattle tails, but safety issues trump confidence. If you're genuinely concerned, tell the building inspector AND the fire chief/inspector. And if you do, include the name of the person who aproved the design. AND DON"T MAKE THE SYSTEM OPERABLE, or you may share liability!!!!!!

icesailor

Wooden Ductwork:

If you wired it, and it is as bad as you say it is, I hope you filed a permit to CYA.

And make sure the electrical inspector does an inspection of your work. If there's a problem later, you are covered. And hope that the electrical inspector will do his job and report that mess.

If one wants to live in a firetrap, that's your right. You do not have a right to put children in danger. Its called child abuse.

Landry Mechanical

yikes

Who is the manufacturer of the furnace? What state is this installed in? Along with my father in law I am a dealer for a certain make of wood boilers and furnaces. Most parent companies want there dealers to become educated and to do the right thing but sadly the people generally selling them are farmers who are dangerously handy and feel codes do not apply. One call to the local FD should shut him down. Also, while boilers are offered in outdoor models I have not yet seen a outdoor furnace. How is the plenum and all the mechanical components kept water tight?

Harvey Ramer

The name on the furnace

is EARTH. It is an extremely poor design. Outwardly it appears typical of an outdoor type boiler/furnace. On the inside, the fire box is simply a round cylinder with the flue going straight out of the top in the back of the box. In the back/bottom of the furnace is a squirrel cage fan bringing air in through the return duct which passes around the fire box and out through the supply duct at the top back of the furnace. The thermostat is 120V and runs through a high limit N/C sensor before turning on the fan to stoke the fire. There is another N/O sensor in the duct that doesn't allow the circulating fan to come on till it reaches 140 F.



Here is my big concern. The wooden duct is attached directly to 3/16" metal and is 1' max away from the back of the fire box and flue. The metal, however, is connected to the fire box providing a direct heat transfer from the fire box to the wood. We all know how easily and rapidly heat transfers through metal. Now say the high limit sensor failed (200 F) and didn't shut off the stoker fan. It wood not take long at all for the metal to ignite the wood. The circulating fan would immediately stoke the flames into a raging inferno in the blink of an eye.



He bought it at a local farm store here in south central PA. You are right Landry. Most of these outdoor deals are being sold by Harry the home owner dealers who have not the faintest inkling of the mechcanics, physics and properties of heat and how to properly design a system that is safe and effectively gets the BTU's where you need them.



I kind of feel like an **** and I know the guy is going to be angry, but the longer I think about those little kids being unwittingly subjected to this dangerous situation, I am going to have to report it.

drhvac

paperwork

Isn't there any installation instructions or manuals where you could show this idiot the way the manufacturer wants it done? If he didn't get it from the guy he bought it from, I'm sure you could download it from the internet somewhere. Good luck!

icesailor

Liabilities

It must be this one:

Is this what it is?

http://www.earthwoodfurnace.com/bear-cub-305-fa.html

How quaint.

In Massachusetts, we're a little more progressive in public safety than some other states. We feel that you have a more or less right to harm yourself. But not to harm others through your folly.

The one "authority" that really over rules or sets standards are the insurance companies. There's a reason that these stoves are advertised as "outdoor" wood furnaces. Because the company won't pay the money and liability insurance, plus the UL listing, to get it approved for indoor use. What will be approved and listed is the method of connecting the appliance to the building under human habitation. And it may only be approved for a shop and not a building under human habitation.

I would research this installation out with the proper authorities. I would ask your insurance carrier about your liability if this is an illegal install and their liability in the install as far as covering you. You do have liability insurance for yourself in case something goes wrong.

At the head of my driveway, beside it is a nice green grass area that is well mowed with flowers. People coming up a road, often turn right when they should have turned left. My driveway is the first convenient driveway to turn around in. They used to drive on my lawn and make ruts. I put logs across so they wouldn't turn. They drove over the logs. Some, a paper delivery person moved the logs so he could drive on my lawn. I built a stone/block structure at the end to make it difficult to turn around in. I was then an asshat. Why?

If it is as you say it is, you have been given complicity in the install by your wiring it.

CYA pal, CYA.

Weezbo

Harvey , its 48 below today

i am writing this from eight miles outside the town of North Pole ,Alaska and the fire trucks sirens and horns just went by on the highway,, our rising fuel oil prices have folks reacting ..... buying many "Solutions" for the immediate problem.. not having vast financial resources ,... they think to do the work and save some money. i am sad for that in a number of ways .

in the past Alaska had the dubious distinction of having more deaths by fire of any state in the union. and the other nearby town the distinction of having the most fire hazards in the state. we managed to turn all that around over the years.

not having read the manufacturers suggested installation guide i am going to take a SWAG that 24" to a Heat shields closer to what ought to be happening...

Weezbo

*~//: )

when you run heated air over wood it strips the moisture from it.. this helps it burn brighter faster hotter yah? so generally folks put the dry wood IN the wood stoves . if for any reason there ever was a breach in the combustion chamber , into a wooden plenum there is insufficent time to stop the spread of fire . the loss of even one human life cannot be repaid . help in whatever way you can .

Rich_L

Liabilty could be on you

I recently read a story, can't remember where for sure, about a contractor that did a job for a customer, just as the customer asked him to, even though he knew it wouldn't work right. He argued with the customer (an architect) telling him his design wouldn't work but the customer insisted it would and if he wouldn't do it he'd find another outfit to do it for him. So the guy takes the work and lo and behold, it doesn't work. Customer sues him and in small claims court, the judge says guilty to the contractor. When the contractor complains the Judge asks him if he's a licensed professional in their state. Contractor says sure. Judge says THEN ACT LIKE IT, GUILTY! Supposedly a true story.



That story really woke me up.



If it's wrong, and you know it's wrong, and the customer insists you do it that way anyway, walk away. I know if we don't do it they'll pay somebody else to so sometimes we think we might as well be the one profiting from the job. From now on, if I know better, I'll act like it and walk away...

Harvey Ramer

Several people have suggested

an installation guide. There is none! There are no tech sheets showing stack temps, minimum clearances, required cfm, type of material approved for burning; nothing! All the info the manufacture has is geared towards selling their product. They even go so far as to hold themselves above other brands.



There are a few outdoor boiler manufacturers that have there act together, such as Central Boiler. Unfortunately there are only a few and they are pricey. I don't know how many times i've heard a dealer say, my boiler heats up to 5,000 sf.  

icesailor

Archetects:

That's a good story but it may have a flaw or two.

If a Licensed Architect, like a Licensed Professional Engineer, can take precedent over many regulations.   They are presumed to have a greater amount of training to do what they do. In most states, it is illegal to use any form of the word "Architect" in any advertising you do for your self, unless you are a licensed professional architect. If you call yourself an "Architectural Designer" and you don't have a Professional Architect License", you are illegal.

Its my understanding that if a Professional licensed architect gives you plans that he or she designed and signed, and there is something wrong, and you point it out, if they choose to ignore you and it doesn't work, its their responsibility. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have a paper trail about your objections that it won't work.

If you go to a school of architecture and graduate, and don't fulfill the requirements for sitting for the license, and don't get the license, you're not an architect. Maybe a designer, but not an architect.

Weezbo

Harvey

why not invite the manufacturer here?

then , perhaps you will get additional information ....

you can certainly see by the responses that in some instances many of us seek further clarification.

technically when we have burned this much daylight at our work and we see something wrong we help one another see things from another perspective.

one day,...

i was driving down a road and saw a wood stove stack on FIRE and could clearly see the roof was rolled roofing and some guy standing outside and some little children running all about outside ,,he was attempting to get them back into the house...so i pulled over and told him the stack was on fire he told me to mind my own business..that he was the land lord and the lady inside and the children were his tenants..

so i told him that i am a mechanical contractor and that in this instance i am an agent of the government and to get them out and away from the building and he could either sort it out with the Fire Chief at the police department later or do as i say.

because you are basically the AHJ its then important to help them out in whatever way that you can. same goes for someone servicing a nat gas or propane appliance .. i think we can be held criminally responsible were we not to do so.

Jamie Hall

And I might add...

as a retired Professional Engineer (registered): if something I stamp as a Professional Engineer goes wrong, I am personally responsible.  It is the law; it is also in our professional code of conduct.



Which sometimes leads me to be a little more cautious in my wording on comments I make here than I might otherwise be -- even though I do not consider myself qualified, nor would I ever hold myself out to be qualified, to engineer (never mind approve and stamp) a heating system!  Somebody might not quite understand the distinction...



I might also note that a responsible engineer never practices outside of the areas in which he or she feels qualified.

Harvey Ramer

Thanks Weezbo and everybody

else for your input. I took your advice and took appropriate action. The issue is now resolved.