a puzzle for all you super-smart steamies

jpf321

OK .. below are thermal imagery 2 videos...there is a significant difference between them .. . can you explain WHY?

VIDEO #1 (real-time: 20mins  video duration: 16s): <a href="http://vimeo.com/35013987">http://vimeo.com/35013987</a>

VIDEO #2 (real-time: 30mins  video duration: 26s): <a href="http://vimeo.com/35023062">http://vimeo.com/35023062</a>



The difference in video lengths is not critical to the puzzle, I just wanted to be sure that I had a complete data set for video #2. There is a timestamp on each video so you can pause them both at about 20mins and compare.



Feel free to download the videos if you like and look at them in your favorite viewer.

I also have all the 500 FLIR source images if anyone would like them.



FACTS:

+ it is the same radiator in both videos

+ i posted about it last year (or maybe the year before) but never made a video until now

+ it is the same exact radiator vent and it was not altered or disturbed between the 2 shoots

+ there is no floor valve (only an elbow) so nothing about the inlet has changed

+ the room is approximately (+/-1degF) temp in both videos

+ the finish on the rad was altered in anyway (it was not painted or anything like that)

+ there were no control setting changes made on the boiler .. but due to TRVs throughout, I cannot say whether the same load was on during both shoots... but this shouldn't be relevant

+ there was no fan blowing or anything like that



Further Hints: available upon request .. (I will be away Saturday and Sunday...so requests made during that time will have to wait until Sunday night .. )

Mark N

Video

jpf321

well that ....

didnt take long :-) .. enjoy the videos ... mark N got it right .. maybe he can edit his post to hide the answer for a few others to work out the answer .. 

jpf321

actually Mark ..

it's the first video that was altered in the way you described .. the 20min (16s) video .. not the 2nd video. perhaps you typo'd 

Abracadabra

a guess

I'm assuming this is a 1 pipe steam system.

Was the radiator in the second video pitched incorrectly? The first video is how I would expect a radiator to heat.  The 2nd video looks like the steam enters and the condensate runs to the left.

jpf321

nope ...

yes .. this is a 1-pipe system ...

nope the pitch of the radiator was not changed at all between the 2 shoots ...



FYI, the 1st video, (20mins elapsed) is the ABNORMAL condition ..

the 2nd video (30min elapsed) is what I would presume to be, in most cases, the NORMAL condition.



jpf

gerry gill

i'll take a stab at it..

as the trv's close, the steam is placed under more pressure and velocity as if the boiler was now to big..(because some of the load is gone by closed trv's)..the remaining open radiators get lots of steam 'jammed'' into them..thats what i see in my minds eye anyways.

jpf321

nope ..

sorry ... you've completely over-thought the answer ..

i wouldn't be able to necessarily replicate dynamic TRV changes systemwide ... i only mentioned them above simply to say that they are not part of the solution .. in about 5 mins I could replicate, on-demand, either scenario .. on this rad .. likely longer on other rads...but my intention is to get them all into the ABNORMAL state of Video #1

Abracadabra

i'm stumped

I'd be very interested to find out what the difference is. Because if the first video is the "abnormal", most radiators that I've worked with seem to me to heat up like that one, not your "normal" one.



It looks like the "abnormal" is venting from up top somehow, where your "normal" one is the air is not being vented out of the top.



When you say it's the same radiator, can we assume that the radiator was not altered in any way?

Abracadabra

double post

double posted.. sorry.

jpf321

hmmmm....

too many answers here would be quite telling ..



i'm not sure if you're on track .. or simply stating theories from observation ..



i provided facts above that I'm comfortable with. but answers to you I may not feel so comfortable ...



what I will say is that if you bought a brand new governale "gov free" or similar radiator it would work out of the box like video #2 (aka NORMAL) ..



I see above that I say the rad was not "ALTERED" .. but then in response to Mark N. I say that it was altered .. I was incorrect in stating that it was not altered in my original post .. my apologies... the rad was modified .. but how? vent remained in same place .. vent was exactly the same and unaltered .. this is NOT a venting issue per se.



I looked back .. it turns out that Mark N. was also the first responder to my post about this 2 years ago. And fittingly, he was first/only to reply correctly today .. I wonder if he remembered our previous discussion or if he finally went for it?? Perhaps he was too "chicken" like rod?

jpf321

IF ANYONE FINDS MY ORIGINAL POST....

If any finds my original post of 2yrs ago .. just state that you found it without necessarily revealing the answer .. you get half-credit .. let some more minds work on it without looking at the "solutions found in the back of the book".

crash2009

I will have to exclude myself

I read Marks correct answer yesterday.  Even though, I was unable to see what he was talking about.  You just keep on coming up with the eye candy don't you?

gerry gill

i'm really intrigued

not just about the subject, but also how the video itself was made..were those independent snapshots turned into a video? how did you do that?

Dave in QCA

A Quandary, a Conundrum, or ****?

JP, you've got me stumped.  My first suspicion is that you have a fast vent in in the second clip, but you have stated that is not the case.  The thing that I notice is that the steam in the second clip goes rushing across the bottom of the rad first, then fills the remaining space.  In the first clip, it fills slower, one section at a time.  So, if venting is not changed, the room temperature is not changed, you have done something to increase the velocity of the steam. 



The second clip looks much like the behavior of my rads after I installed orifices.  Yes, I have that strange 2-pipe system where the steam enters the bottom of the rads.  Some of the rads are the steam type with no connection at the top, and some are hot water type, like you have shown in the clips.



The question of exactly what you did to the rad....    Smaller valve.... or somehow you necked down the inlet to the radiator...   You got me.

Abracadabra

Found the original post

I found the original post, but I have to say that the question and clues provided are not quite "fair".  The alteration made is not something anyone would normally do to a radiator, and in fact is something that I've never even heard of being done in 25+ years of messing around with steam.







An interesting modification though.  I think a more important question is, which video appears to be the more correct way for a 1-pipe rad to heat up?

Mike Kusiak_2

You're very close

Dave, you actually mentioned whats going on here, but probably don't realize it. JP modified the radiator to get the different results.



I saw the answer after Mark posted it so i won't comment further.

jpf321

well ...

considering that not even Dan H. has a reference for the original article (neither date nor publication source) .. and the only google reference I can find for the author is in a Michigan Newspaper dated 1916 .. (not even sure this is the correct person) .. it's not something that comes up much I suppose ..



however, I'm confident that the 1st video radiator is heating better than the 2nd. overall, it stayed hotter .. and heated more thoroughly more quickly 20mins vs. 30mins. from steam to initial inlet.



overall, the concept makes sense once you realize what's been done and what's going on ..



i'm on my way out the door now until tomorrow night without connectivity ... i'm glad some others know the answer and can manage the thread while I'm away ..

jpf321

JPGVideo freeware

JPGVideo is a little piece of freeware software that will take same-sized JPGs and make them into an AVI movie... http://download.cnet.com/JPGVideo/3640-2140_4-77457.html



As soon as I had all the pictures 200 for the 1st video and 300 for the 2nd .. it only took 3mins to make the video ..

crash2009

I prefer video 1

Now that I have watched the video's again, in my opinion the first video 1/12/2012 is a better heated radiator.  The crosshair got hotter quicker.  The ambient got up to 68 quicker.  The final ambient temp was 72. The color "white" suggests the radiator in video 1 heated more thouroughly as well. 



So let me get this straight the video from 01/12/2012 has the modification, and the video from 01/13/2012 has the mod removed?   

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Well...

It looks like the steam velocity into the radiator was alot higher in the second video since it shot across the radiator instead of just wafting up into the sections.  So with it being one pipe steam, then 1) the supply valve was smaller, 2)  the supply valve was partially closed, 3)the supply valve was suddenly opened, or maybe a trv is on the air vent and opened in mid heating cycle.

Abracadabra

supply valve is not it

supply valve is not it. 

Dave in QCA

ABRACADABRA!!!!

Hey!   Whose Quiz is this???   



heh heh heh

Wendell

Stab in the dark...

a diffusing tube inserted part way into the radiator?

Dave in QCA

Naw....

That can't be it!

jpf321

Yes

Yes.. 1st w mod.. 2nd "removed"

jpf321

Hmmmm..

Where would this thing be inserted in your mind?

jpf321

ANSWERS.. If you are giving up

http://goo.gl/DNf43

And

http://goo.gl/YkScy



congrats to ROD who sent me a private message with the correct answer after remembering our conversation/thread of 2yrs ago

JStar

RE

So, this method basically converts hot-water radiators into steam radiators?

Wendell

Backwards

I was thinking it backwards and was angling to distribute the steam more evenly through the entrance... maybe a lawn sprinkler like tube inserted into the inlet... might work (or not)!

jpf321

Did you look

@ the answer?

Wendell

Yes, I saw the answer when you posted it

and I was thinking the solution through totally backwards.



I still think my diffusing manifold idea might work

haaljo

I think that's what he's doing albeit they will "work fine"

without the conversion per 2010 email in thread jpf refers to in link. The email is from steamhead. The radiators luvnsteam describes sound beautiful.

10 degrees this morning in Boston.