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a puzzle for all you super-smart steamies

jpf321
jpf321 Member Posts: 1,568
OK .. below are thermal imagery 2 videos...there is a significant difference between them .. . can you explain WHY?

VIDEO #1 (real-time: 20mins  video duration: 16s): <a href="http://vimeo.com/35013987">http://vimeo.com/35013987</a>

VIDEO #2 (real-time: 30mins  video duration: 26s): <a href="http://vimeo.com/35023062">http://vimeo.com/35023062</a>



The difference in video lengths is not critical to the puzzle, I just wanted to be sure that I had a complete data set for video #2. There is a timestamp on each video so you can pause them both at about 20mins and compare.



Feel free to download the videos if you like and look at them in your favorite viewer.

I also have all the 500 FLIR source images if anyone would like them.



FACTS:

+ it is the same radiator in both videos

+ i posted about it last year (or maybe the year before) but never made a video until now

+ it is the same exact radiator vent and it was not altered or disturbed between the 2 shoots

+ there is no floor valve (only an elbow) so nothing about the inlet has changed

+ the room is approximately (+/-1degF) temp in both videos

+ the finish on the rad was altered in anyway (it was not painted or anything like that)

+ there were no control setting changes made on the boiler .. but due to TRVs throughout, I cannot say whether the same load was on during both shoots... but this shouldn't be relevant

+ there was no fan blowing or anything like that



Further Hints: available upon request .. (I will be away Saturday and Sunday...so requests made during that time will have to wait until Sunday night .. )
1-pipe Homeowner - Queens, NYC

NEW: SlantFin Intrepid TR-30 + Tankless + Riello 40-F5 @ 0.85gph | OLD: Fitzgibbons 402 boiler + Beckett "SR" Oil Gun @ 1.75gph

installed: 0-20oz/si gauge | vaporstat | hour-meter | gortons on all rads | 1pc G#2 + 1pc G#1 on each of 2 mains

Connected EDR load: 371 sf venting load: 2.95cfm vent capacity: 4.62cfm
my NEW system pics | my OLD system pics

Comments

  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,115
    edited January 2012
    Video

  • jpf321
    jpf321 Member Posts: 1,568
    well that ....

    didnt take long :-) .. enjoy the videos ... mark N got it right .. maybe he can edit his post to hide the answer for a few others to work out the answer .. 
    1-pipe Homeowner - Queens, NYC

    NEW: SlantFin Intrepid TR-30 + Tankless + Riello 40-F5 @ 0.85gph | OLD: Fitzgibbons 402 boiler + Beckett "SR" Oil Gun @ 1.75gph

    installed: 0-20oz/si gauge | vaporstat | hour-meter | gortons on all rads | 1pc G#2 + 1pc G#1 on each of 2 mains

    Connected EDR load: 371 sf venting load: 2.95cfm vent capacity: 4.62cfm
    my NEW system pics | my OLD system pics
  • jpf321
    jpf321 Member Posts: 1,568
    actually Mark ..

    it's the first video that was altered in the way you described .. the 20min (16s) video .. not the 2nd video. perhaps you typo'd 
    1-pipe Homeowner - Queens, NYC

    NEW: SlantFin Intrepid TR-30 + Tankless + Riello 40-F5 @ 0.85gph | OLD: Fitzgibbons 402 boiler + Beckett "SR" Oil Gun @ 1.75gph

    installed: 0-20oz/si gauge | vaporstat | hour-meter | gortons on all rads | 1pc G#2 + 1pc G#1 on each of 2 mains

    Connected EDR load: 371 sf venting load: 2.95cfm vent capacity: 4.62cfm
    my NEW system pics | my OLD system pics
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
    a guess

    I'm assuming this is a 1 pipe steam system.

    Was the radiator in the second video pitched incorrectly? The first video is how I would expect a radiator to heat.  The 2nd video looks like the steam enters and the condensate runs to the left.
  • jpf321
    jpf321 Member Posts: 1,568
    nope ...

    yes .. this is a 1-pipe system ...

    nope the pitch of the radiator was not changed at all between the 2 shoots ...



    FYI, the 1st video, (20mins elapsed) is the ABNORMAL condition ..

    the 2nd video (30min elapsed) is what I would presume to be, in most cases, the NORMAL condition.



    jpf
    1-pipe Homeowner - Queens, NYC

    NEW: SlantFin Intrepid TR-30 + Tankless + Riello 40-F5 @ 0.85gph | OLD: Fitzgibbons 402 boiler + Beckett "SR" Oil Gun @ 1.75gph

    installed: 0-20oz/si gauge | vaporstat | hour-meter | gortons on all rads | 1pc G#2 + 1pc G#1 on each of 2 mains

    Connected EDR load: 371 sf venting load: 2.95cfm vent capacity: 4.62cfm
    my NEW system pics | my OLD system pics
  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,078
    i'll take a stab at it..

    as the trv's close, the steam is placed under more pressure and velocity as if the boiler was now to big..(because some of the load is gone by closed trv's)..the remaining open radiators get lots of steam 'jammed'' into them..thats what i see in my minds eye anyways.
    gwgillplumbingandheating.com
    Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.

  • jpf321
    jpf321 Member Posts: 1,568
    nope ..

    sorry ... you've completely over-thought the answer ..

    i wouldn't be able to necessarily replicate dynamic TRV changes systemwide ... i only mentioned them above simply to say that they are not part of the solution .. in about 5 mins I could replicate, on-demand, either scenario .. on this rad .. likely longer on other rads...but my intention is to get them all into the ABNORMAL state of Video #1
    1-pipe Homeowner - Queens, NYC

    NEW: SlantFin Intrepid TR-30 + Tankless + Riello 40-F5 @ 0.85gph | OLD: Fitzgibbons 402 boiler + Beckett "SR" Oil Gun @ 1.75gph

    installed: 0-20oz/si gauge | vaporstat | hour-meter | gortons on all rads | 1pc G#2 + 1pc G#1 on each of 2 mains

    Connected EDR load: 371 sf venting load: 2.95cfm vent capacity: 4.62cfm
    my NEW system pics | my OLD system pics
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
    i'm stumped

    I'd be very interested to find out what the difference is. Because if the first video is the "abnormal", most radiators that I've worked with seem to me to heat up like that one, not your "normal" one.



    It looks like the "abnormal" is venting from up top somehow, where your "normal" one is the air is not being vented out of the top.



    When you say it's the same radiator, can we assume that the radiator was not altered in any way?
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
    edited January 2012
    double post

    double posted.. sorry.
  • jpf321
    jpf321 Member Posts: 1,568
    edited January 2012
    hmmmm....

    too many answers here would be quite telling ..



    i'm not sure if you're on track .. or simply stating theories from observation ..



    i provided facts above that I'm comfortable with. but answers to you I may not feel so comfortable ...



    what I will say is that if you bought a brand new governale "gov free" or similar radiator it would work out of the box like video #2 (aka NORMAL) ..



    I see above that I say the rad was not "ALTERED" .. but then in response to Mark N. I say that it was altered .. I was incorrect in stating that it was not altered in my original post .. my apologies... the rad was modified .. but how? vent remained in same place .. vent was exactly the same and unaltered .. this is NOT a venting issue per se.



    I looked back .. it turns out that Mark N. was also the first responder to my post about this 2 years ago. And fittingly, he was first/only to reply correctly today .. I wonder if he remembered our previous discussion or if he finally went for it?? Perhaps he was too "chicken" like rod?
    1-pipe Homeowner - Queens, NYC

    NEW: SlantFin Intrepid TR-30 + Tankless + Riello 40-F5 @ 0.85gph | OLD: Fitzgibbons 402 boiler + Beckett "SR" Oil Gun @ 1.75gph

    installed: 0-20oz/si gauge | vaporstat | hour-meter | gortons on all rads | 1pc G#2 + 1pc G#1 on each of 2 mains

    Connected EDR load: 371 sf venting load: 2.95cfm vent capacity: 4.62cfm
    my NEW system pics | my OLD system pics
  • jpf321
    jpf321 Member Posts: 1,568
    IF ANYONE FINDS MY ORIGINAL POST....

    If any finds my original post of 2yrs ago .. just state that you found it without necessarily revealing the answer .. you get half-credit .. let some more minds work on it without looking at the "solutions found in the back of the book".
    1-pipe Homeowner - Queens, NYC

    NEW: SlantFin Intrepid TR-30 + Tankless + Riello 40-F5 @ 0.85gph | OLD: Fitzgibbons 402 boiler + Beckett "SR" Oil Gun @ 1.75gph

    installed: 0-20oz/si gauge | vaporstat | hour-meter | gortons on all rads | 1pc G#2 + 1pc G#1 on each of 2 mains

    Connected EDR load: 371 sf venting load: 2.95cfm vent capacity: 4.62cfm
    my NEW system pics | my OLD system pics
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    I will have to exclude myself

    I read Marks correct answer yesterday.  Even though, I was unable to see what he was talking about.  You just keep on coming up with the eye candy don't you?
  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,078
    i'm really intrigued

    not just about the subject, but also how the video itself was made..were those independent snapshots turned into a video? how did you do that?
    gwgillplumbingandheating.com
    Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.

  • Dave in QCA
    Dave in QCA Member Posts: 1,785
    A Quandary, a Conundrum, or ****?

    JP, you've got me stumped.  My first suspicion is that you have a fast vent in in the second clip, but you have stated that is not the case.  The thing that I notice is that the steam in the second clip goes rushing across the bottom of the rad first, then fills the remaining space.  In the first clip, it fills slower, one section at a time.  So, if venting is not changed, the room temperature is not changed, you have done something to increase the velocity of the steam. 



    The second clip looks much like the behavior of my rads after I installed orifices.  Yes, I have that strange 2-pipe system where the steam enters the bottom of the rads.  Some of the rads are the steam type with no connection at the top, and some are hot water type, like you have shown in the clips.



    The question of exactly what you did to the rad....    Smaller valve.... or somehow you necked down the inlet to the radiator...   You got me.
    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
    Found the original post

    I found the original post, but I have to say that the question and clues provided are not quite "fair".  The alteration made is not something anyone would normally do to a radiator, and in fact is something that I've never even heard of being done in 25+ years of messing around with steam.







    An interesting modification though.  I think a more important question is, which video appears to be the more correct way for a 1-pipe rad to heat up?
  • Mike Kusiak_2
    Mike Kusiak_2 Member Posts: 604
    You're very close

    Dave, you actually mentioned whats going on here, but probably don't realize it. JP modified the radiator to get the different results.



    I saw the answer after Mark posted it so i won't comment further.
  • jpf321
    jpf321 Member Posts: 1,568
    well ...

    considering that not even Dan H. has a reference for the original article (neither date nor publication source) .. and the only google reference I can find for the author is in a Michigan Newspaper dated 1916 .. (not even sure this is the correct person) .. it's not something that comes up much I suppose ..



    however, I'm confident that the 1st video radiator is heating better than the 2nd. overall, it stayed hotter .. and heated more thoroughly more quickly 20mins vs. 30mins. from steam to initial inlet.



    overall, the concept makes sense once you realize what's been done and what's going on ..



    i'm on my way out the door now until tomorrow night without connectivity ... i'm glad some others know the answer and can manage the thread while I'm away ..
    1-pipe Homeowner - Queens, NYC

    NEW: SlantFin Intrepid TR-30 + Tankless + Riello 40-F5 @ 0.85gph | OLD: Fitzgibbons 402 boiler + Beckett "SR" Oil Gun @ 1.75gph

    installed: 0-20oz/si gauge | vaporstat | hour-meter | gortons on all rads | 1pc G#2 + 1pc G#1 on each of 2 mains

    Connected EDR load: 371 sf venting load: 2.95cfm vent capacity: 4.62cfm
    my NEW system pics | my OLD system pics
  • jpf321
    jpf321 Member Posts: 1,568
    JPGVideo freeware

    JPGVideo is a little piece of freeware software that will take same-sized JPGs and make them into an AVI movie... http://download.cnet.com/JPGVideo/3640-2140_4-77457.html



    As soon as I had all the pictures 200 for the 1st video and 300 for the 2nd .. it only took 3mins to make the video ..
    1-pipe Homeowner - Queens, NYC

    NEW: SlantFin Intrepid TR-30 + Tankless + Riello 40-F5 @ 0.85gph | OLD: Fitzgibbons 402 boiler + Beckett "SR" Oil Gun @ 1.75gph

    installed: 0-20oz/si gauge | vaporstat | hour-meter | gortons on all rads | 1pc G#2 + 1pc G#1 on each of 2 mains

    Connected EDR load: 371 sf venting load: 2.95cfm vent capacity: 4.62cfm
    my NEW system pics | my OLD system pics
  • crash2009
    crash2009 Member Posts: 1,484
    I prefer video 1

    Now that I have watched the video's again, in my opinion the first video 1/12/2012 is a better heated radiator.  The crosshair got hotter quicker.  The ambient got up to 68 quicker.  The final ambient temp was 72. The color "white" suggests the radiator in video 1 heated more thouroughly as well. 



    So let me get this straight the video from 01/12/2012 has the modification, and the video from 01/13/2012 has the mod removed?   
  • Well...

    It looks like the steam velocity into the radiator was alot higher in the second video since it shot across the radiator instead of just wafting up into the sections.  So with it being one pipe steam, then 1) the supply valve was smaller, 2)  the supply valve was partially closed, 3)the supply valve was suddenly opened, or maybe a trv is on the air vent and opened in mid heating cycle.
    The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

    Chicago's Steam Heating Expert





    Noisy Radiators are a Cry for Help
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
    supply valve is not it

    supply valve is not it. 
  • Dave in QCA
    Dave in QCA Member Posts: 1,785
    edited January 2012
    ABRACADABRA!!!!

    Hey!   Whose Quiz is this???   



    heh heh heh
    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
  • Wendell
    Wendell Member Posts: 61
    Stab in the dark...

    a diffusing tube inserted part way into the radiator?
  • Dave in QCA
    Dave in QCA Member Posts: 1,785
    Naw....

    That can't be it!
    Dave in Quad Cities, America
    Weil-McLain 680 with Riello 2-stage burner, December 2012. Firing rate=375MBH Low, 690MBH Hi.
    System = Early Dunham 2-pipe Vacuo-Vapor (inlet and outlet both at bottom of radiators) Traps are Dunham #2 rebuilt w. Barnes-Jones Cage Units, Dunham-Bush 1E, Mepco 1E, and Armstrong TS-2. All valves haveTunstall orifices sized at 8 oz.
    Current connected load EDR= 1,259 sq ft, Original system EDR = 2,100 sq ft Vaporstat, 13 oz cutout, 4 oz cutin - Temp. control Tekmar 279.
    http://grandviewdavenport.com
  • jpf321
    jpf321 Member Posts: 1,568
    Yes

    Yes.. 1st w mod.. 2nd "removed"
    1-pipe Homeowner - Queens, NYC

    NEW: SlantFin Intrepid TR-30 + Tankless + Riello 40-F5 @ 0.85gph | OLD: Fitzgibbons 402 boiler + Beckett "SR" Oil Gun @ 1.75gph

    installed: 0-20oz/si gauge | vaporstat | hour-meter | gortons on all rads | 1pc G#2 + 1pc G#1 on each of 2 mains

    Connected EDR load: 371 sf venting load: 2.95cfm vent capacity: 4.62cfm
    my NEW system pics | my OLD system pics
  • jpf321
    jpf321 Member Posts: 1,568
    Hmmmm..

    Where would this thing be inserted in your mind?
    1-pipe Homeowner - Queens, NYC

    NEW: SlantFin Intrepid TR-30 + Tankless + Riello 40-F5 @ 0.85gph | OLD: Fitzgibbons 402 boiler + Beckett "SR" Oil Gun @ 1.75gph

    installed: 0-20oz/si gauge | vaporstat | hour-meter | gortons on all rads | 1pc G#2 + 1pc G#1 on each of 2 mains

    Connected EDR load: 371 sf venting load: 2.95cfm vent capacity: 4.62cfm
    my NEW system pics | my OLD system pics
  • jpf321
    jpf321 Member Posts: 1,568
    edited January 2012
    ANSWERS.. If you are giving up

    http://goo.gl/DNf43

    And

    http://goo.gl/YkScy



    congrats to ROD who sent me a private message with the correct answer after remembering our conversation/thread of 2yrs ago
    1-pipe Homeowner - Queens, NYC

    NEW: SlantFin Intrepid TR-30 + Tankless + Riello 40-F5 @ 0.85gph | OLD: Fitzgibbons 402 boiler + Beckett "SR" Oil Gun @ 1.75gph

    installed: 0-20oz/si gauge | vaporstat | hour-meter | gortons on all rads | 1pc G#2 + 1pc G#1 on each of 2 mains

    Connected EDR load: 371 sf venting load: 2.95cfm vent capacity: 4.62cfm
    my NEW system pics | my OLD system pics
  • JStar
    JStar Member Posts: 2,752
    RE

    So, this method basically converts hot-water radiators into steam radiators?
  • Wendell
    Wendell Member Posts: 61
    Backwards

    I was thinking it backwards and was angling to distribute the steam more evenly through the entrance... maybe a lawn sprinkler like tube inserted into the inlet... might work (or not)!
  • jpf321
    jpf321 Member Posts: 1,568
    Did you look

    @ the answer?
    1-pipe Homeowner - Queens, NYC

    NEW: SlantFin Intrepid TR-30 + Tankless + Riello 40-F5 @ 0.85gph | OLD: Fitzgibbons 402 boiler + Beckett "SR" Oil Gun @ 1.75gph

    installed: 0-20oz/si gauge | vaporstat | hour-meter | gortons on all rads | 1pc G#2 + 1pc G#1 on each of 2 mains

    Connected EDR load: 371 sf venting load: 2.95cfm vent capacity: 4.62cfm
    my NEW system pics | my OLD system pics
  • Wendell
    Wendell Member Posts: 61
    edited January 2012
    Yes, I saw the answer when you posted it

    and I was thinking the solution through totally backwards.



    I still think my diffusing manifold idea might work :)
  • haaljo
    haaljo Member Posts: 112
    I think that's what he's doing albeit they will "work fine"

    without the conversion per 2010 email in thread jpf refers to in link. The email is from steamhead. The radiators luvnsteam describes sound beautiful.

    10 degrees this morning in Boston.
This discussion has been closed.