Cold Radiators - two pipe syastem

Yard

I guess after 16 years it's time to see what needs to be done to get my Weil Mclain #68 boiler with a two pipe system working correctly. Since we've owned the house there have always been radiators that never heat up and some don't seem to get as hot as others. If I take what would be the vent screw on a hot water system out of the radiator I get  plenty of steam coming through, so it seems to me that there is a problem with the return not getting back to the boiler. But, unfortunately even after all these years I haven't ordered the books(I will), so I really only know what I have learned reading the great posts on this site. Most of the radiators in the house don't have the traditional steam traps, they have what I've found out to be an orifice type of device instead. I guess my question is where to start troubleshooting? I'm also looking for any recommendations for a good steam person in the South Central CT area, I'm about 10 miles north of New Haven.

I've attached some pictures , please let me know if you need to see any others.

Thank you, I look forward to your input!

gerry gill

i can't make out

whats written on that outlet device for the radiator..can you type it, and also check its other side (maybe with a mirror) and see if there is writing on the other side also..same thing for an original inlet valve to the radiator.

Yard

More info

The "trap" says JOSE. I included pictures of one taken apart. There are no movable parts inside.

The inlet valve says Capitol Brass Detroit.

Thanks

gerry gill

That is a most unusal return fitting,

I tried to find some info for you at the patent office, but just don't have enough information to go by..As far as the radiator goes, since you get steam to it, you are correct that the issue is past the radiator..It could be a failed or clogged return fitting..since yours has no moving parts to fail, it can in theory get clogged, tho i've never seen a water seal clog as usually the radiators mud leg prevents that..the return pipe could be sagged which prevents the radiators air from leaving..the return can have steam in it from another radiator and that could stop a farther downstream radiator from working..some things you can look at tho.

Jamie Hall

Boy oh boy...

If Gerry's slightly stumped, there's no way I'm going to figure it out!  However, marching bravely out on a limb, saw in hand, could I ask what pressure the whole thing is running at?  If it is some sort of orifice or water seal kind of contraption, then system pressure is critical -- and you'll want it nice and low.



South central Connecticut?  You might be able to persuade Charles Garrity to come down that far.  He is in Find a Contractor, but under Massachusetts.  And he knows his stuff...

Yard

Pressure setting

The gauge on the boiler never seems to move but the cut in is set to 1

and the cut out is set to around 2.2(the differential setting is around

1.2). I hope I'm answering correctly, I still have a LOT to learn.



Does the piping around the boiler look right?







Thanks

Steamhead

You've made a new Vapor discovery!

I've never seen that type of return fitting either. Or those main vents. Can you take one of the main vents off and see if there is a name on it?



I'll second the recommendation for Charlie Garrity. Heck, I'd ride up from Baltimore to see this system!

Yard

Vent Picture, Return fitting info

No name on the vents, but here are a couple of pictures.



As to my discovery, when I was trying to figure out the brand of what I thought were steam traps I received this email from The Steam Trap Center:



Interesting and rare old trapping method. These units predate the

invention of the modern thermostatic (bellows) trap of approximately

1903 and are found in houses up to the 1920's. It's intent was to offer

steam resistance as opposed to trapping steam. They were

cheap, small and did the job 'ok'. The idea was by installing a small

hole after the radiator, and operating the coal boiler at only ounces of

pressure you would capture most of the steam in the iron radiator.

There were other manufacturer's (paul, +) of similar piping. There is no

one that manufactures these and they would not operate well with our

modern boilers due to inability of today's boilers to hum along at only a

few ounces of pressure. Replacing them is the only option. Would you

like a quote on a replacement thermostatic trap.



This one is not in my collection and i'd very much like one. I could send UPS out to pick one up at no cost to you if its ok.



Thanks for the replies so far!

Jamie Hall

Pressure

That pressure is way too high for a vapour system.  They aren't cheap, but I expect that you could do yourself a real favour by getting a vapourstat and setting it low -- might try starting at 12 ounces cutout with a 6 ounce differential (vapourstats are subtractive).  Might put a snubber on the pigtail to the vapourstat, though -- they can be a little jittery without that.

crash2009

LAOSH

I was just reading page 255 of The Lost Art of Steam Heating.  The Vapor Engineering Company VECO.  Could this be what you have?  The VECO section goes on to say that these systems are found mostly on the Connecticut coast in the Greenwich to New Haven area.  No moving parts, Pay extra attention to water level when replacing the boiler.

Steamhead

Not VECO

These are much bigger than VECO's water seals, unless they're very early versions. Looks like we have another Mystery Vapor System here. Might take some digging, but are any building plans available that would show what equipment was used?



The main vents have little vacuum checks in them, which allowed the system to go into vacuum as the coal fire burned down. But this doesn't work well on oil or gas. Try running the system with the check discs removed and see if that helps.



Retrofitting this system with thermostatic traps would be interesting, since the piping around the rads is definitely non-standard. No need to do this- I bet the cold rads probably have plugged air holes in the return fittings, and simply need to be cleaned.

Yard

Vents

Thank you for all the info so far...



The vents have a check ball in them and what looks like a disc in the pictures is actually a screen. Should I remove the check balls, or should the vents be switched to another type until I find someone to come out that can help me get things right? I've run it for a short time with the vents removed but I don't think it made a difference.

 

I took apart a couple of the return "traps" and ran a piece of wire through the orifice but they didn't appear to be clogged. I'm guessing that there must be problems beyond them.



I don't think I'll be able to get the building plans anywhere, but if it helps at all the house was built in 1927.



As far as the pressure settings, I know I don't have the ideal set-up, but until I update it should my settings be changed?



Thanks!

gerry gill

1927, thats not that old (comparetively speaking)

steam tended to be very localized..by that i mean there are pockets of neighborhoods that one particular system design dominates..why, because the manufacturer was local..where are you and do you know what steam firms were around in 1927 in your city? library business section has these records..it would be really interesting to find the patent on your system but its probably under the inventors actual name.

moneypitfeeder

maybe a good oportunity

to use orifice plates? That way even if you can't get the pressure low enough even with a vaporstat to make the traps work, the rad would only receive the amount of steam it could condense. It would sure be cheaper than all new traps. Yikes one or 2 at a time can be painful.