Maxtrol without a line vent

Maine Vent

I Gas Pros, I hang out on the steam side mostly. I just got my new Weil Mclean SGO4 with a Riello gas burner installed about 1 month ago. I had a new boiler pro, not the installer, come by for a second opinion on some steam issues. He looked at my Maxtrol regulator and said this install is safety violation. It is installed in the vertical plane with no vent line. He was very concerned about this. I am new to Natural Gas, my installer is a licensed gas installer. What should I do about this vent limiter.



I am also getting ready to pipe up gas for a range, and a gas dryer. I'm now sure I don't want the boiler installer doing my appliance gas hookup.



I am wondering why the regulators need a vent in the vertical position and not the horizontal position?



One more question, Each appliance should have its regulator for the BTU output for that appliance correct?



Very happy with my gas system so far, but now very scared I am not safe.



Any advise is much appreciated.



Thank You.

kcopp

Is the regulator...

on its back "tower" facing straight up? that I thought was the only way you could use a vent limiter. Is this a 325 reg? Got a pict?

Maine Vent

Maxtrol pics

It is a 325, as you can see in the pic. and it's mounted vertical. Not on it's back.



Thanks for the advice

meplumber

No.

NO. NO. NO.



Even if it were installed correctly, and it's not, that is too close to the burner. I would have to dig it out, but I believe that the Maxi with the vent limiter must still be 3 feet from the burner. Note that this doesn't apply to appliance regulators with vent limiters due to the lower btus.

Maine Vent

Maxitrol installed wrong

Is the 3 feet distance a code violation here in Maine, or a national violation? I am really angry that I had 2 gas licensed installers put this thing in, both men said nothing about the position of the regulator, or the vent pipe that it's suppose to have on it.



Thanks, I'll be getting it changed next week.

lchmb

you

can make a connection to the vent and run a 1/2" (believe that's a 1/2" connection) line to the outside. At that point it will be a mute point as to the direction and location of the regulator. Just make sure to put some type of screen on the outside where it terminates...

Tim McElwain

What is the gas pressure up to that

boiler? What is the number of the gas valve? What is the input to the boiler in BTU's?

lchmb

curious

Just noticed that was natural gas, I didnt know they did two pound systems into house's...or do they? (forgive me, I work for a propane/oil company)

meplumber

I didn't catch that either Ichmb.

Sorry. I may have misspoke. I only do propane/oil too. I am in Eastern Maine. No natural up here yet. I didn't even think about you having natural gas down in southern Maine.



Tim McElwain is the man for natural. I wasn't aware that they did 2-lb systems for natural either. i thought that it was all 3.5 to 5" wc.

Maine Vent

Maxtrol without a line vent

I have 2psi to the regulator. The Maxtrol is a 325-5AL.



The burner is set with a B3 Riello orifice, which is rated at 114,000BTU's.



Maxtrol Technical support says this regulator in the vertical position needs a line vent to the outside.

Tim McElwain

Yes that 2 pound

to inches regulator must be vented to outdoors. Move it to the horizontal and you can use a vent limiter. It has to do with the effect of gravity on the internal relief and diaphragm. That was why I ask what the pressure was.

Maine Vent

Thanks Tim

In the horizontal position what does a vent limiter do in case of a ruptured diaphram?

I have limited room on the horizontal run to mount that regulator. Thats is why the installer mounted it down vertical.

What about a distance factor from the burner, should it be 3' or more away?

Thanks Again

Henry

Horizontal

The regulator must be horizontal. The vent limiter will allow only 1 cu/ft (propane) and 2.5 cu/ft (natural gas) of gas escape if the diaphram leaks. It has a small brass ball.

Here is the info:

http://www.maxitrol.com/ventlimiter.html

Henry

Tim McElwain

The concern for

space between the Maxitrol and the gas valve is the possibility of the two regulators working off one another, that is the Maxitorl and the built in regulator in the gas valve. I always to be safe place the Maxitrol up in the ceiling on the horizontal at least 6 feet or more from the gas valve. Just allow some access to get to the top of the Maxitrol for adjustment.



Why is this a 2 pound system by the way?

Maine Vent

Maxtrol without a line vent

Thanks all for your advise,



2 psi is what maine natural gas co. runs to residential customers. I have no idea why.



My original boiler pro, Al Letellier, who just passed away in Oct, he wanted at least 2psi for more btu's and I guess a smaller diameter black pipe to run. we went with 1" BI instead of 3/4 why, I don't know.



I just want to be safe, keep my neighbors safe, because they are all petrified of natural gas



Now I am a bit leery when you can have "steam knuckleheads" doing gas installations, and not doing them safely.



That's my concern, Thanks to everyone for the comments and advise on this thread.

Maine Vent

Maxitrol installed too close to boiler

Thanks everyone for your advise on this.



New problem seems the brand new Riello gas burner has a combustion motor problem. No heat, burner will fire run for about 10-15 minutes.



Go into low water check mode from the cycleguard.



Burner goes back into pre purge ready to fire then it makes this noise like low grinding noise, not right. burner kicks off



My service tech took a look at it yesterday, said it could be the combustion motor coupling.



He also said the Maxitrol reg. was too close to the burner, it needs to moved up on the line.



He said something about the line from the regulator needs to have a certain amount goes in it when the burner fires and then the reg. will then fill the line for the burner.



The gas valve has made this loud banging noise when it would shut off. It would do this intermittently.

My service tech is going to contact Riello monday to see what they say.



My wife and I thank God were staying home over Christmas, now we get to tend the coal stove just like they used to do in the "old steam heat days".



I am thankful for my little coal stove that keeps this 1700 sq. ft house comfortable.



Any ideas on this noise and possible fix come Monday.



Merry Christmas too all

Bob Harper

MP reg

The rules in the gas code are found under Medium Pressure regulators and the reg. mfrs listed instructions.

Vented away from source of ignition, yes. Pics don't show but there must be a listed shutoff immediately upstream of any MP regulator. If the diaphragm blew in this reg. the shutoff shown would be of no use. You also must protect the regulator with a sediment trap, which also provides a means of attaching a presure gauge. Then another tee downstream or pressure tap with means to attach manometer. Those traps must be vertically oriented with the gas making a 90 degree turn so gravity catches any condensate or debris. Some jurisdictions require an overpressure device in the event of regulator failure so cross-check against your local ordinances and state fire code.

HTH

Jean-David Beyer

Sediment trap?

"You also must protect the regulator with a sediment trap, which also provides a means of attaching a presure gauge."



My incoming gas line, installed by the gas company converts from plastic to metal underground near the meter. It comes out of the ground, goes through a shutoff valve, through the regulator, through the meter, through another shutoff valve. After that, it goes into my garage with black pipe and on its merry way.



There is no sediment trap. Perhaps they feel the vertical pipe coming out of the ground is good enough.



There is no place to attach a pressure gauge.

lchmb

Jean

a sediment trap is required for the appliance gas valve not the system regulator...

Bob Harper

MP regs per the IRC

2009 IRC, G2421.2 which is IFGC 410.2 MP regulators

item 5- "A tee fitting with one opening capped or plugged shall be installed between the MP regulator and its upstream shutoff valve. Such tee fitting shall be positioned to allow connection of a pressure measuring instrument  and to serve as a sediment trap"

item 6- "A tee fitting with one opening capped or plugged shall be installed not less than 10 pipe diameters downstream of the MP regulator outlet. Such tee fitting shall be positioned to allow connection of a pressure measuring instrument. "

Maine Vent

Maxitrol

Thanks all for you help.



I do have a sediment trap below the 90 going to gas valve.



I will be getting the regulator moved up on the vertical supply line on 1-9-2012.



I will also be putting in another valve BEFORE the regulator.



My question, or concern is, could this regulator being this close to the gas valve and close to the burner have any detrimental effects on the operation of the burner?



The noise the burner is making when it tries to fire is like the noise a table saw makes when the saw blade gets jammed and the motor makes a humming sound. This is what the brand new gas burner is doing. Any thoughts?

Jean-David Beyer

Sediment traps. OK: I have two.

By my only gas appliance (my boiler) I have two. One outside the boiler box for the inspector, and one inside the boiler box, because the manufacturer put one there.



I must have misunderstood the poster to whom I replied. He said: "Pics don't show but there must be a listed shutoff immediately upstream of any MP regulator." It seems to me that my regulator must be MP, if that means medium pressure. I suppose about 7 inches water gauge is the pressure after the pressure regulator. I think the gas guys said the pressure in the street is about 15 psi.



I saw a high pressure gas regulator once. The pipe must have been 6 inches or more in diameter and if memory serves (not certain), the regulator was a yard or more in diameter. The thing was really screaming, so I suppose it was throttled down a lot.

Tim McElwain

As I mentioned in an earlier posting

two regulators in close proximity to one another will work off one another and cause diaphragm pulsation on one or the other. A pounds to inches Maxitrol should be installed per manufacturers instructions. I usually see them up in the ceiling of the basement about 10 feet from the equipment on the horizontal run. They then have a drop leg to the equipment sized based on the length from the outlet of the Maxitrol regulator and the pressure provided by the regulator usually just to be safe a minimum of 3/4" is safe. I know of no rule that says sediment traps have been done away with. I am awaiting my 2012 code books and will see if it has been removed from the International Code or NFPA 54 National Fuel Gas Code.



So the answer is yes Maxitrol regulator positioning can cause your problem. I would also make sure a professional has set up the Riello burner and has done an effective adjustment to same based on combustion analyzer finding.

Maine Vent

Thanks Tim

My service tech has done a combustion analyse, and the burner is set up very good by him. He is going to come by on Monday and I will relay to him your advise. He also suggested lowering the incoming PSI to1 pound. I want him to move the regulator up higher and get us heat first. He came come back in Jan. to vent it out side. I hope this is just a regulator pulsation problem, and not a riello burner issue. Your knowledge is greatly appreciated. Thanks for all the Pro's that help out us homeowners.

Bob Harper

NFPA stds. online

Tim, you can access any of the NFPA stds.onlinehttp://www.nfpa.org/onlinepreview/online_preview_document.asp?id=5412# for free here:

The requirements for sediment traps are unchanged still in the std. at 9.6.7

Its still in the IFGC but I don't have a link to that yet. Still, any changes in stds are not truly in effect as local law until voted into the law by your state or local agency. Only in the absence of ANY code would a court look to the most appropriate std. I recommend you save your pennies and buy the Commentary for any code or std. if available. That's where you get explanatory material that often clears up questions. For instance, the IFGC Commentary has an illustration showing how running traps are illegal.

HTH

Tim McElwain

Thanks Bob

I have to have the actual code in hand as I teach the code in my classes. I have to cover requirements for all of New England and New York as I get students from all over. This means Mass Code, NFPA 54 and 58, and International Fuel Gas Code for RI. Not only that but all my night class students going for licenses get a cover to cover breakdown of all the codes in class. They also have to have the codes in their trucks in Mass and RI so we buy them to give out to the classes.



I once attempted to buy a set of ANSI Standards that pertain to gas equipment (Z21 Series) and was shocked at the price of some of them. One five page standard for a particular topic was $525. It would have cost me thousands of dollars to purchase all of them. I was spoiled when I worked for the gas utility as I got them for nothing.

Bob Harper

codes and stds

LOL. Tim, I've followed you for years and I'm a big fan. Wish I could get up to take some of your courses as I have heard nothing but high praise.

Great idea making them carry the code books on site! I love it. In Delaware, you have to walk in with your code books to get licensed or buy them on the spot. Most techs i know do not own a copy. If you are under the IRC, just join the ICC for $100 and get one code for free. I can get the $125 IRC for 100 plus a membership. You must not have check the ANSI prices lately as most are upwards $1K. I have a few plus all the UL listings for venting and most hearth products but I'm on the UL STP so I get those updates for free.

You could spend a fortune buying every code and std. you are held to and they get revised every 3 yrs or so. Yes, everyone waiting for Spring 2012 for a bunch of new code books. BTW, I prefer the Code Commentaries whenever available. Well worth it. Also, a side benefit of joining NFPA and ICC that pays for itself is getting direct rulings and opinions from guys like Ted Lemoff to help resolves disputes.

Maine Vent

Finally a fix

Happy New year to all



The gas valve was stuck, it would stutter when it tried to open. New gas valve, Maxitrol vented outside, no boiler for week, 9 bags of coal, priceless.



I don't think my original installer put in a new gas valve. I saw no box for a new one, no paperwork like all my other instruments that we bought for this new system. So I am thinking this valve was used or something of the nature. Any way we got steam for new years eve. Amen.