Boiler & Furnace

NewtoHeatHelp

Hi, I'm a new homeowner here. It's been vacant for a year so I can't ask the old homeowners any heating questions.

The house is over 100 years old, three stories, 2,000 sq ft. It has a gas-fired boiler (new within 3-5 years) and a furnace. Right now, the boiler has been fixed, but we were told that the radiators (which I believe are forced-water, not steam) don't work. We're not sure why, just told that it would take a long time to trouble-shoot since if one on the line is broken, they all don't work and you don't know if they are all broken or just a few.....



We also have a furnace for central A/C and electrically heated air. I don't like this type of heat. The first floor probably doesn't have enough registers, so it's pretty cool and that type of air dries me out.



Anywho, my questions are:

- how common is it for a home to have both water-radiant heat from a boiler and furnace heated air?

- which one is more cost-efficient and effective at heating? (I think I know the answer to this...radiant heat?)

- if I were to actually get my radiators working, what thermostat would I use? the same ones that I use for the furnace? (2 thermostats, first floor and second floor) or is the boiler thermostat actually on the boiler?

- should I just try to "bleed" my radiators first before calling an expert?

- and finally: what type of expert would I call to get my radiators up and working? Plumber or HVAC?



Sorry, I know I have many questions, but I'm just unsure of where to start.

Jamie Hall

You have some research to do, good buddy

But it's not hard.



First off, radiators don't break; that is, they can leak, but there's nothing in there to break.  If the system really is hot water, the water just goes in one end, heats up the radiator, and comes out the other.  At least that's what is supposed to happen.



So... first thing to do is find out, for sure, whether the system is hot water or steam, and if it is steam, if it is one pipe or two.  One pipe steam is the most obvious -- each radiator has only one pipe going to it, and a little vent thingy on the opposite (usually) end.



If you took a picture of a typical radiator and posted it, we can tell you pretty fast whether it's steam -- and what type -- or hot water.



If the system is hot water, there should be at least one pump somewhere right near the boiler in the basement -- there might be several, but there has to be at least one (unless you have an unconverted gravity system -- not likely).  So again, a few pictures of the boiler and the piping in the immediate area will help us tell you what you have pretty fast.



Now -- having figured out what you really have, the question is why don't the radiators heat?  (because I presume that that is what you contractor means by "broken").  This really doesn't take that long to troubleshoot -- unless the problem is really exotic.  The basic principle is to turn on the boiler and make sure the pump is running.  Then one just goes along the piping, finding out where it is hot or not -- and then you take a look around at the area where it stops being hot, find out why.  One possibility is that the system simply needs to have the radiators bled -- if it's hot water, there's usually a bleeder valve at the top of one end of the radiator; open it until you get water coming out instead of air.  There may be a valve on the inlet to the radiator -- make sure it's open (sounds obvious, but...).  There may be valves on the piping in the basement; make sure they are open.



And so on.  Pictures, pictures, pictures -- and maybe a diagram sketch of where the pipes and radiators and valves are?



As to the thermostat -- hot water systems have two (at least) controls: a thermostat on the boiler, which control how hot the water in the boiler is, and a thermostat (or thermostats) in the house somewhere, which controls whether the pump runs (and zone valve(s), if any).  What happens is the thermostat(s) in the house calls for heat, and the pump runs and valve (if any) opens.  Then, if the boiler senses that the water being circulated isn't hot enough, it fires up to warm up the water.  That's the basics; there may be other controls.



As to a mix of warm air and hot water or steam -- it's common enough, and does no harm, but most folks prefer hot water or steam... you would need a separate house thermostat for each system, though.



That help?  Tell us more!

John Mills_5

Comfort

As a dryhead who grew up in a house with converted gravity hot water, I can tell you the radiator system, steam or hot water, will be the ultimate in comfort. My guess is they wanted cooling so added the duct system and threw some heat strips in the air handler. Could be used to take the nip off of a cool morning to avoid firing the boiler and heating up all the radiation but probably find straight resistance heat to be very expensive as a sole source of heat. As for not enough registers on the first floor, that will hurt your heating but be fine for cooling as cool air will fall naturally and heat that comes in on the first floor will rise upstairs.



Could be that 1 stat controls the forced air and the other the boiler. Or, like my cousin's house, the main floor stat is the heating zone from the boiler and the upstairs stat controls the upstairs heating zone from the boiler and also the cooling.

John Mills_5

Comfort

duplicate showed up!

NewtoHeatHelp

Some Homework Done

Sorry it's taken me so long to get back with some answers. Moving in, hot water heater issues, bathtub leaks, there's been a lot going on in terms of home improvement in the last few weeks.



So, it is a hot water radiant system. Boiler (pic attached) along with 2-pipe radiators (a pic of one attached.)



I had a plumber come and look at my "broken" radiators. They are CRACKED! 4 out of 7 radiators in the house are cracked (see picture). The more I learn about radiators, the more that has come to be a dirty word. Now that I've done a little research on fixing this situation, I'm in way over my head. We basically have to replace all the cracked radiators. They range anywhere from 10-20 "coils" each. I don't have an exact number, but this is likely to be costly. Then even after the cracked ones are replaced, we still don't know about possible cracks/leaks in the radiator pipes behind walls/floors. There is the possibility of pressure testing the system with air, but it's not 100% accurate. So my understanding is even if the pressure test holds, we still won't be absolutely sure until we turn the system on and "wait" for water pouring through the ceilings. Trust me, that is not a good picture (see before mentioned bathtub leaks, which was on the 2nd floor). I think I'm developing an ulcer...



So, now I'm glad that the house also has a furnace as well. So at least we have some heat. It seems the furnace was the supplemental system to the radiators (or really it was added for A/C and the heat is just nice to have), but the furnace just doesn't produce enough heat for the house. The 3rd and 2nd floors are HOT and the first is FREEZING. I closed vents on the 3rd floor and left the thermostat fan in the ON position to continuously recirculate the air, but it's still like 60 degrees on the first floor. I'm just going to be miserable all winter, and I'm dreading my electricity bill. I'm sorry, I'm just venting at this point.

Steamhead

They still make radiators

and you can find good used ones too. Where are you located? 

NewtoHeatHelp

Location

I live in Missouri. A few of the replacement radiator companies that I see are based on the East Coast.....

Jamie Hall

Tiresome

Sounds like someone let the house freeze at some point, with water in the system.  That's the usual way to crack a radiator...  which is too bad.  You may, however, with some research be able to find "used" radiators much nearer to you than the east coast: "junk" yards, especially those associated with demolition or remodelling contractors, often have them, and there must be one or two of those around, in St. Louis if nowhere nearer.  The big cost is usually in the shipping; they're heavy.



You may also have some cracked pipes, if the indeed the system was allowed to freeze.  This isn't as bad as it sounds: as it is hot water, and not steam, the cracked pipes can be replaced with either copper or hight temperature PEX quite happily.  It's a nuisance, but not a catastrophe (we've installed a pretty fair amount of PEX for the water system in the building I superintend, as we can't take the walls and chases apart.  Take the old pipe out in sections with a sawzall, and thread the PEX in just like electrical wiring.  Works fine...).



Yes, it will take some time and care -- but it can be done, and you will be happy once you get it done.

NewtoHeatHelp

Thanks!

Thanks, you've given me some hope that it's not a totally ruined system. This winter is a wash so I'll shoot for next winter. That gives me time to scour my local area for old radiators. Thanks for the tip on demo yards, I'll have to make some calls but didn't think of this before b/c they're not really online.