loud brand new air valves- eek

steamnut

Hopefully this isn't too naive a question- I am new to the whole steam radiator wrangling.

I just purchased and installed 6 new Hoffman 1A, 1/8" Adjustable Angle Steam Radiator Air Valves to the 6 radiators in my home as the old ones were in sore need of replacement. It seemed to go fine. I paid the extra bucks since these were so well reviewed, but much to my dismay they have been incredibly loud! They hiss and clank as they inner piece clamps down and cause a huge racket such that my whole house was awake and my 20 month old was crying it scared him so badly. Any diagnostic suggestions will be much appreciated. Thank you.

Rod

Noisy Radiator Vents

Hi-   At what pressure is your system running? It maybe that your pressure is set too high.  A residential steam system should never run at more than a max. 2 PSI.  Also have your main vents been checked recently?

- Rod

steamnut

loud radiator vents

HI Rod,



Thanks for offering up some of your expertise. SO I looked at my boiler and there is a Honeywell box that is titled "Cut In" that appears to be set at 2 psi. I also just checked out my main vents and there are two, one of which is covered in dry rusty water. I am not sure what criteria to use to determine if they should be replaced?- altho I imagine that dry rusty water isn't a good sign. I do plan to get one of the suggested books, to do some more reading but it the meantime anything to quiet down the racket would be fantastic! Thanks again for writing back.

kcopp

turn down......

the pressure and replace the main vents. The rad vents are working too hard.

Rod

Noisy Radiator Vents

Hi- Main vents are high capacity vents and their job is to allow the air in the steam mains and from the boiler to escape so that steam can fill the mains and be available to the radiators. When steam reaches the main vents, they close and keep the steam in the piping.so that it can travel on and fill the radiators.

   On the other hand the radiator vents (like the Hoffman 1A) are low capacity vents as their job is to just vent the air contained in the radiator.  Why you are getting the "hissing" is the radiator vents are trying to do their own job plus that of the main vents.  The problem maybe further increased if the pressure is set too high.



Main vents, like radiator vents , need to be replaced periodically.  You can test them for operation by holding a long strip of newspaper up to the vent hole to test if  they are releasing air when the boiler is turned on and starts to make steam. When steam reaches the vent it will close and you then won't detect movement in the paper strip.  DO NOT test the vent operation with your hands! Steam burns aren't fun!  Personally I think I would just go ahead and replace your main vents as they sound as though they have been in service quite a while.  If you can see if there is any name or numbers on the present main vents and also if you can tell us the length and size of the pipe of your steam mains we can calculate how much main venting your will need.

Pressure- Is the pressure gauge working and if so, what is the reading on the gauge when the radiator vents are "hissing"? The Honeywell control box (pressuretrol)  settings are only very approximate and the gauge, if working properly, is more reliable.

You could probably replace the main vents yourself but it might be a good idea to get a pro to check over your boiler and adjust the settings if necessary. You should have the boiler/ burner checked once a year anyway.

- Rod

Steamhead

It would be a good idea

to have a steam pro take you over your system, since this is your first one. In particular, if the boiler is over-pressurizing this can be a safety issue. Also, replacing main vents is not a simple matter of putting the same ones on that are already there, since they were probably sized for coal firing rather than oil or gas.



When everything is running as it should, you will love the way that system keeps you comfortable.



Try the Find a Contractor page of this site.

Jamie Hall

Eek indeed

Steamhead's advice is probably the best (no surprise -- he's certainly one of the best!) but until you can get someone to come in...



A radiator vent which is hissing or clanking is responding to one or both of two things: woefully inadequate main venting and too high a pressure.  From your comments I would say you  have both problems, to start with.



If that Honeywell pressurestat is set for a cut in of 2 psi, the cutout is probably around 3 psi -- twice as much pressure as you need.  If you're feeling a little brave, try dialing it down to a cut in of 0.5 psi (may have to be a little higher -- if so, it's sort of like limbo -- how low can you go?).  That may help some, and shouldn't hurt anything.



As others have noted, it's very likely that your main vents are either not working or are way too small.  Unless you are handy, this really is a job for a pro. -- but they should be replaced, and unless they are good big ones to begin with (unlikely) they will need one -- or maybe two or three -- much bigger ones.

steamnut

Thanks!

Thank you all for your very helpful comments and contributions.  It looks like the consensus is main vents and boiler pressure!  I guess as someone who is brand new to this subject, I will go ahead and pursue a professional, altho I do look forward to trying to master some of this myself.  My last question would be: what is the best way to find a proficient steam professional?  IE certain questions to ask or certifications?  Unfortunately, I did use the contractor link on this site and searched within 75 miles with only two hits, neither of which seem to focus on steam.  I live in ME so there are not a ton of businesses around.  Thank you again!

BobC

Pressuretrol

I can't help you with a steam pro in Maine but If your pressuretrol likes like the picture I've attached you can adjust the screw on the top of the case down just about as far as you can and the set that white dial so it reads 1. You just have to loosen the screw on the front to lift the cover off to adjust the white wheel, make sure you shut off the power first because the switch has 120v on it assuming it's an oil system. That should set your cut out at 1.5PSI and the cut in at 0.5PSI.



Take some pictures of your boiler, the piping around it and whatever you have for main vents and maybe we can help you with selecting a better main vent. We'll also need to know how long the steam main(s) are and what size pipe (just measure the circumference and we can find out what size pipe it is).



Bob

steamnut

air valves cont

It DOES look like that Bob, I will plan to adjust it this evening when I get home!  I will also see what other info I can scrounge up.  I figure a steam specialist/expert would be the best since in the past I had an issue which took 2 different heating companies and multiple visits to ultimately figure out I had a broken automatic refill and in addition non functioning site glass for me to just fill it on my own.  I was not left with the impression that many heating companies are well versed in steam heat. 

BobC

Very hard to find

It's unfortunate that steam experts are so hard to find, I do almost all of my own work just because it's so hard to find someone who knows steam. I leave the combustion side to the pro's because i don't have the instrumentation or the knowledge to do that side comfortably.



I bought "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" and Greening Steam" from this site and have learned a lot from them. I read The Lost Art all the way through over a couple of evenings and was impressed with the information it contained, it was like having one of the Dead men explain it all to me. Those books have paid for themselves many times over.



Bob

Big-Al_2

Might not be venting or Pressuretrol

I had hissy-clanky radiator vents in my house too.  I followed the standard advice of people here and added about $250 worth of main venting and turned down my pressure limit control as far as it would reliably go.  I didn't notice any difference, except in my checking account balance.  It turned out that my boiler was too big.  It had 144,000 BTU's of steam output connected to about 70,000 BTU's worth of radiators.  It was making steam too fast at the start of a heating cycle. The multiple large main vents would close as soon as steam hit the end of the main and then it would go charging into the radiators, pushing air out ahead of it. Think about it.  A closed large vent releases the same amout of air as a closed smaller vent , , , zero.  If your radiator vents don't start hissing until after your main vent is already closed, then better main venting will not quiet the radiators.  The radiator vents would start to make noise as soon as the system had a few ounces of pressure, so going to a low-pressure vaporstat would have only led to a lot of rapid cycling of the boiler.



In an attempt to slow the avalanche of steam, I added two more radiators, and against the advice of some people here, I changed the burner orifices and downfired the boiler by 10%, the maximum recommended by Burnham.  It's still somewhat oversized, and not dead quiet, like some say it should be . . . but it's about 80% better than it was.  



Oh, and I found that the fairly inexpensive Maid-O-Mist radiator vents seem to be about the quietest venting, and they close gradually without clanking. I gathered up the expensive Hoffman radiator vents I originally bought, and sold them on eBay. 



My $.02 . . . . 

ChrisJ

Maid-o-mist

For what its worth I believe Maid-O-Mist are just cheap knockoffs of Gorton vents. I Installed Hoffman 1A's on all of my rads and adjusted them per the size of the radiators and piping.



I've yet to fire the system up but as soon as its complete I will.  I've got a feeling the Hoffman 1A's click by nature, but shouldn't hiss under normal conditions.

Big-Al_2

Not Knock Offs

I've experimented with Watts, Gorton, Hoffman, VariValve, and Maid-O-Mist vents.

 

Unlike Gortons, Maid-O-Mist vents have interchangeable orifices that have a smooth transition on the inside, not just drilled holes like Gortons.  This makes them quieter and will allow you to change out the orifices to adjust the venting speed.  Some say that the internal components of Gorton vents are sturdier than those in Maid-O-Mist, but I don't know for sure.  I actually still have some of each, and haven't had any trouble with either.  I definitely installed the Maid-O-Mist vents within earshot of where I sleep though . . . much more peaceful.



Yes, Hoffman and Watts vents definitely clink when they close . . . by design.  They have an alcohol-filled actuator inside with a base like an old-fashioned oil can.  When steam hits the vent, the alcohol boils, and the bottom of the actuator pops out with an oil-can noise, clink!  The Maid-O-Mist and Gorton vents have a bi-metal actuator that closes slowly.  This can actually create  hissing in itself, but the Maid-O-Mist vents do seem quieter.



What I'd really like to find is an old-fashioned vacuum vent for my bedroom radiator.  That way, when the boiler shuts down and the system goes below atmospheric pressure, the radiator near my bed will never be the one making all the sucking noises.

ChrisJ

Ah

I didn't know they had removable orifices.  I just gave four vari-vents to a neighbor so he can adapt them for use as main vents.  He is a bit tight on money now and they are better than no vent at all which is what he has right now.



Wouldn't installing a vacuum vent on one radiator cause problems?

Big-Al_2

No problem

I doubt that installing ONE vacuum vent would be a problem.  There would be plenty of other vents to break the vacuum. The vacuum vent would just never be the sucky one.



 I have experimented with adding a vacuum breaker to the main so the upstairs vents never have to suck air, but had trouble finding one that both sealed reliably and broke vacuum soon enough.  I did find that one Maid-O-Mist vent in the batch seemed to usually open back up later than the others.  That one is now in my bedroom.  It almost never makes sucking noises . . . ALMOST never. 



I messed around with a Heat Timer Varivalve on a radiator in one cold room to try to get heat there faster. With the vent wide open, the radiator would get fully hot long before the others would start to warm up much at all.  I found that it vented so fast that a LOT of steam rushed into that one dead cold radiator, creating gobs of condensate in a hurry.  Unless I mostly closed off the vent, it would make gurgling noises and sometimes spit.  The configuration of the vent, with the outlet on the side didn't help the spitting either.   No use having a fast vent and then having to slow it down.  It was an interesting experiment anyway.  I hear they can work OK as a main vent, but can spit there too.

Rod

Maine Steam Pro

Hi- Yes....Steam people in Maine are hard to find!  My mother's house is located in Bath. Where are you located ? Maybe I can think of someone close to you who might be of help.

- Rod

steamnut

steam service

Hi Rod,

I'm in the Portland area........I've done quite a bit of google searching without coming across any promising finds. 

So reccs are always appreciated. 

nicholas bonham-carter

loud radiator vents

i can think of only 2 reasons the radiator vents would be hissing loudly:

1.inadequate main [not radiator] venting. possibly the dry return has a sag in it preventing the air from getting through to the vents.

2.over-pressure as a result of the pressuretrol being faulty, or the pigtail being clogged.

if it were simply a matter of the boiler being hugely over-sized, then the main vents would still relieve most of the air and the radiator vents would snap shut sooner.

if you feel comfortable removing the pigtail, and verifying that you can blow through it, then one cause would be eliminated. to check the pressuretrol, you need a gauge accurate at the upper limit of the pressure range [gaugestore.com, 0-3 psi]. by watching the gauge, you can see when the burner cuts in, and out. you can also see the back-pressure of the main vents as they are open letting the air out. the original 0-30 psi must stay for code reasons, but it is so inaccurate at low pressure as to be useless.

my new pressuretrol arrived with a new boiler set too high; however when i tried to dial it down, it became completely inaccurate, and the pressure went up to 10 psi. i went to the supply house, and got a vaporstat-problem solved.--nbc

Big-Al_2

Hissssssss

With some vents, i can make them hiss audibly simply by holding them to my lips blowing through them gently, so it doesn't take much pressure.  If the main vent is undersized or missing, then the radiator vents will blow air as soon as the boiler starts steaming.  If the main vent is big enough, then the radiator vents won't see much air movement until the main vent closes.  Once the main vent closes, its size is irrelevant. The radiator valves need to vent the rest of the air, which might be half of what was in the system to start with.  At that point, if the boiler is filling the radiators slowly, the vents will be quiet.  If the boiler is filling the radiators quickly, then the vents may make some noise. 



I added an antler full of pricey main vents on my system, and it didn't help the hissing at all.  I added two radiators and dropped the burner output by 17,000 BTUs, keeping the Pressuretrol the same . . . and the hissing almost disappeared.  My radiators fill more slowly now, and the boiler doesn't cycle on pressure unless it's coming off of a deep setback. 



Summary:  Oversized boilers push air quickly..  Properly sized boilers push air slowly.  Once the main is vented, the radiator vents do all the venting regardless of main vent size. A properly sized boiler will gently and quietly push the air out of the radiators and will seldom cycle on pressure.  Am I missing something?

Rod

Finding a pro in Portland

Hi- I’m sorry I’m afraid  I don’t have a name for you in the Portland area.  There used to be a really great steam pro there,  Al  Letellier, who unfortunately passed away suddenly earlier this month.



For a lead on a good steam pro, you might ask one of the following if  they can recommend a good residential steam man to you.  They are Peerless Boiler Distributors in the Portland area.  (Guess what boiler I have!    Specify that you want a pro who knows steam heating.



F. W. WEBB COMPANY

Paul Grantz

210  Pearl St.

Portland, ME 04101

Cumberland County     Ph: 207-772-8364



JOHNSTONE SUPPLY #29

Chris Giles

95 Blueberry Road

Portland Me 04102

Cumberland County     P: 207-321-2224



F W WEBB COMPANY

Mike Cote

150 Postal Service Way

South Portland, ME 04106

Cumberland County     P: 207-774-0192



My experience trying to find a steam pro in Maine sounds like it was similar to your situation.  I went through many service calls and different supposed pros but nothing seemed to get fixed so finally in desperation I decided to learn about steam myself. I would highly recommend you get Dan’s book “We Got Steam Heat!” http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Steam-Heating-Books/25/61/We-Got-Steam-Heat-A-Homeowners-Guide-to-Peaceful-Coexistence

as it is a great introduction to residential steam heating.  It’s easy, humorous reading and written so a homeowner can understand it. One of the big advantages is that it gives you enough knowledge to qualify whether the pro you are talking to really understands steam heating.  Dan’s steam books will save you money and pay for themselves very quickly many times over.

- Rod

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

That pretty much somes it up....

You do need the big main vents because the mains fill very quickly with steam and do not condense much steam,  but the radiators begin condensing alot of steam, so the venting can be alot slower in the radiators.

nicholas bonham-carter

Excess boiler capacity

Can you make some hot water to use up some of your excess capacity?

Did you say you had a good gauge, and if so, what is the back-pressure during venting?--nbc

Big-Al_2

More Radiators

I just have a 30 PSI gage, but I verified that it is functional and reasonably accurate in the lower range, and as the boiler cycles, the gage agrees with the settings on the Pressuretrol.  No, I can't read it within a fraction of a PSI, but I can hear venting long before the gage moves off of zero. 



The boiler is single stage, off or on, and there is maybe a 20 second delay in the control between the call for flame and actual ignition. I need to have cut-in at at least 1/2 PSI or the system sucks air before the boiler resumes steaming on a pressure cycle.  I wouldn't be able to take advantage of a low pressure Vaporstat without rapid cycling and lots of re-venting.  A boiler with a modulating or 2-stage burner would be better for that, but that's not what I have.



I do have a place for the excess capacity.  I have four upstairs rooms still without radiators.  When I feel rich and ambitious, I'll pipe in some more radiators and put the original orifices back in the boiler.  Until then, I have a big enough radiator in the upstairs hall to keep the unused rooms reasonably warm . . . as long as I keep all of the doors open. 

Dave in QCA

Hoffman 1A Not my favorite

Boiler Pro repeatedly reminds us to vent our main fast and our radiators slowly but completely.  This will keep one-pipe systems balanced, quiet, and running great.  It will even let a system tolerate a marginally sized boiler, or undersized boiler.



In a few cases I have observed that Hoffman 1A vents can cause big balance problems if set too fast.  So, in many cases setting them in the low end of the range is necessary.  But, then you have to take the screw off and visually see how much of the port is being covered because there is no other way to know for sure that the adjusting cap is centered, and it has a great deal of wobble and play.



I have seen systems that were working great with Hoffman #40 vents and a contractor changed them out to 1As.  The system became very unbalanced and noisey.   I am not a fan of the 1A vent.  It has it place, but so does the #40, which is often considered obsolete or inferior.

ChrisJ

Hoffman 1A

Dave,  If I recall I thought whoever installed the 1A's didn't even bother to adjust them which caused all of the problems?



I do agree, while I feel that the 1A's appear to be made very well the slop in the adjustment cap is terrible.

Dave in QCA

Yes

You remember correctly.   And I agree completely with your assessment of the 1A.

steamnut

update

Thank you all for such good information, it has all been extremely educational.  I did turn down the pressuretrol, which did not seem to impact the noise- but at least it made me feel like I was trying to make a difference.  I have been in touch with someone who was recommended, and he sounded like he knew what he was doing.  He will be by later in the week to help me check out the main vents and wether the pressuretrol is working adequately.  I agree about the Hoffman 1a, as I was trying to set them, I was having trouble getting the top piece to secure on a set number.  I actually called the company I purchased it from hoping to speak to someone and potentially send them back, but you can imagine no one is very receptive to that. 

steamnut

question.

i was able to run down and check my pressure gauge at the tail end of my radiator angrily spewing and saw that it was up to 4 psi. i'm sure if i had made it down sooner it would have been higher. i imagine the gauge should go up some during those times, but how much should be expected? i WILL be buying the books people suggested, which may have some of this in them, but until they arrive, always nice to hear people's input.

ChrisJ

pressure

I would expect to see no more than 1.5 - 2 PSI at the most.

crash2009

Setback Thermostat?

I have been reading your post from the start, and I just wanted to bring up something that might not have been suggested as of yet. 



In your first post your complaint arose while everyone was sleeping, and this last one at 10:15 am suggests that its morning wherever you are.  Is it possible that you might have a thermostat that has been "set back"?



If so most of us, that do not have perfect systems, do not use setbacks for the reasons that you have unfortunatly found out about.  You do still want to address the pressure and venting problems, but a quick temporary fix would be to shut off any setback feature that you might have on the thermostat.



Also, someone opening a window near the thermostat, first thing in the morning can cause the same effect.



Just a hunch!

Big-Al_2

Too High!!!!

Like stated before your pressure should never exceed 2 PSI.  1.5 would be even better, depending on the capability of your pressure limit switch (Pressuretrol.) The one that came with my boiler only goes down to 2 PSI, but most will go lower.  A residential steam system actually only needs a few ounces of pressure to work well, and increasing pressure beyond begins to waste fuel and will actually slow down the steam. Beyond about 3 PSI most radiator vents can't re-open and beyond about 5 PSI they may be permanently damaged.



Many heating techs know close to nothing about steam, and it's common to see systems turned up too high in a failed attempt to compensate for a bad vent or a piping problem. 



What's the setting on your Pressuretrol? 



Like Crash alluded to, when the boiler comes off of a long setback it needs to run longer and will tend to reach a higher pressure.  Normally, after a time, the Pressuretrol will start cycling the burner off and on if the steam pressure reaches the limit . . . providing it's set right, not blocked, and functioning correctly.  At my house, in October the boiler doesn't run much during the day, if at all, but comes on when the sun goes down and the outdoor temperature drops.  This also leads to the boiler running longer, as the whole system is starting out dead cold.

Dave in QCA

Heck Yes! It's TOO HIGH!

WOW, I only assumed that we were talking normal operating pressures.  Those vents make an audible hiss and to some, yours truly included, that is annoying.  But, at the pressure you were building up too, I am sure they were hissing up a storm of operatic proportions!  No wonder that baby is crying.



As Al has already said, get that pressure turned down!  It should NEVER go above 2 PSI for residential steam.  It will work better at 1.5 PSI or lower.

steamnut

the repairman..

if anyone happens to be still reading this thread, I had the repairman out who said that the hissing the radiators made was not too loud and to be expected. However when he checked the pressure at that time it read 4 psi. SO he said well that is too high, and he installed a new pressuretrol and set it for the 2 psi. Well after that when we fired it up again, it went up to 5 psi at which time the boiler kicked off. SO his conclusion was that the gauge just wasn't working (which wasn't a big deal- his words not mine) and at least the boiler was turning off now. (but in retrospect with the old pressuretrol we didn't let it get to 5). He didn't have a gauge on him but said he would be happy to switch that out at another time since the "pressuretrol was really the brains of the operation". He also did not know what a vaporstat was. I really hope I didn't just waste all that money for nothing. As always I am open to people's thoughts.

Big-Al_2

Zero?

Very interesting.  What does the pressure gage read when the boiler is off?  Sometimes a gage gets plugged or broken and just stops moving.  Other times, it just drifts off of zero.  If your gage reads 3 when it should read zero, then I can believe that the Pressuretrol is working.  If it does return to zero, then there is likely to be something else wrong.  It's best to have a completely correct gage though.

BobC

Pigtail?

Did he check the pigtail to make sure it wasn't clogged? A good pressuretrol can't see the steam pressure if the pigtail is clogged. If the gauge is flaky who knows what the real pressure is. The good news is the safety will pop if the pressure gets to 15PSI but I can guarantee it will scare the pants off you if it pops.



Does the boiler seem to be heating the house ok without any undo noise? One problem with high pressure is the air vaves cannot open back up so everything heats up initially but then won't reheat because those valves stay shut above 3 PSI and the steam does not reach the radiators to heat them up.



Bob

steamnut

so

when the boiler is off the gauge reads just below 1. And then it won't turn off until the guage reads between 4-5.

steamnut

heatin up

Yes, everything gets nice and toasty. And he did check the pigtail and said it was all clear and open. When we ran the boiler again to test the pressuretrol the radiators were already hot, and there was no noise. He said if they are starting from cold, then they will always make noise. I haven't had the opportunity to run it from cold yet since through that whole process my house got to be like 74 degrees in Maine on a day it could snow! I suppose that would be a good test- but I am suspect. I suppose figuring this all out could be fun- kind of like a mystery- but not really cause it costs money.

steamnut

yup

it sounds exactly like it did before