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steel tank to bladder tank

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AIB
AIB Member Posts: 4
in THE MAIN WALL
 I have an old Burnham boiler with an old 15 gal. steel expansion tank hanging in the ceiling. I want to replace the old tank with a new bladder type tank.(extrol #90) It is a 2 story house with cast iron radiators throughout.. My question is, will the new tank be able to go in the same place as the old one(no room to put it right before the pump). Will it need an air separator on the new tank(if so where should it be plumbed?)I appreciate the help.(will it work how i have it drawn? It's 3/4" copper from the supply to the boiler and tank)

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  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
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    Caution

    Your old tank is the air separation device when it's piped off the top of the boiler. If you install a bladder tank, you'll need an air separation device (MBR, Scoop, etc.) installed on the boiler supply line. The new tank will then connect to the bottom of the air separator.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • AIB
    AIB Member Posts: 4
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    would this be right

    After the ball valve place an air eliminator with the expansion tank screwed to the bottom. Then would it be ok to place a drain cock on the other side of the air eliminator, to drain it  for future servicing. Would that be an acceptable way to plumb it? Or would it be better to just cap the end off?
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
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    Won't Work

    An air separator has to be in the supply line where there's flow going through it to work. It won't work on a line that is static.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • AIB
    AIB Member Posts: 4
    edited October 2011
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    Another way?

    Would there be another type of fitting I could  use in order to keep the tank in the same place? I would like to keep the new tank on the copper and not have to mess with the C.I. if possible. The only copper is the water coming into filling the tank and over to the expansion tank.Here are a couple more pictures.

    pic 1-pump side of boiler

    pic 2-in the foreground is the line going into the boiler from the reducing valve,from the reducing valve over to the the tank. On the far left you can see the bottom of the red expansion tank.

    I hope this helps with my question
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,376
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    Looks Like...

    A converted gravity system. An air separator is at its least effective performance on this type of system. Air will still end up at the highest point: the top of the radiators.



    You could put an air purger (not the same as a separator) where you've drawn the Ell above the boiler and the pipe goes from vertical to horizontal. Put a Tee there instead of the Ell that has an 1/8 in. female port on the top. It's called a "baseboard Tee" that will be 3/4" x 1/8'' female x 3/4". The air purger has 1/8" male threads and will screw into the top of the Tee. It won't be as effective as an MBR, but will substantially accomplish what the old tank did in receiving air.



    You'll still need to bleed your rads periodically.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Jean-David Beyer
    Jean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,666
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    You'll still need to bleed your rads periodically.

    I am curious about the need for periodic bleeding. My installing contractor, in whom I have lost confidence, replaced my short baseboards on the top floor of my house with longer ones at my request. The old ones had little coin type manual bleed valves. The new ones had no bleeding ability. I asked why they did not put in bleed valves, and they said baseboards did not need bleeding. Downstairs, where the boiler is, are purge valves for each zone.



    I then read that microbubble resorbers (I have one) do not need bleed valves because any air will dissolve into the water and be removed by the mbr. Of course, if my system were to get air in it, it would surely migrate to the top and if there were enough, it would all go up and stop all water flow to that zone. But if there were only a little air, it just might work as described.



    And that seems to be the case. About a year ago, I had a noisy circulator replaced, and they purged the system after doing that, but there was still a little air in there. I could hear it. But after a while it quieted down as it all dissolved into the water and was removed by the m.b.r. Mine is a Taco, but I assume a Spirovent would do as well. Otherwise, I have never needed to bleed it. That was true, also, with the old system with no air remover except a coin valve in the boiler. None of them seemed to need bleeding except if some plumbing was being changed around.
  • AIB
    AIB Member Posts: 4
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    correct vent?

    http://www.pexsupply.com/Honeywell-Braukmann-EA122A1002-Automatic-air-vent-with-built-in-shutoff-valve-10864000-p

    http://www.pexsupply.com/Bell-Gossett-113222-Model-No-97-1-8-Automatic-Air-Vent-Male-Threaded

    http://www.pexsupply.com/Watts-0590715-1-8-FV4-Auto-Air-Vent-3679000-p

    Is there a difference in these air vents? Which would be best for my application?

    Would putting automatic bleeders on the radiators help?Such as these

    http://www.pexsupply.com/Watts-0590712-1-8-HAV-Auto-Air-Vent-w-Manual-Override-3680000-p
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