Hammer after new boiler

Jared

I had a new boiler installed at the end of last year on my one pipe steam system and since then I’ve been having water hammer issues. Previously this only happened if the old boiler needed to be drained but it is a regular occurrence now when the boiler warms up and for about 10 minutes after that. The tech said it was likely a blockage in the return but the hammer will go away prior to the boiler turning off so that didn’t make sense to me. Also, I have drained it many times and recently I noticed black silt on the bottom of the bucket I drained it into. Any suggestions or ideas for what I can do to reduce or eliminate this would be greatly appreciated.

BobC

pictures?

What make and model is this new boiler?



What pressure is the boiler operating at, it should be 2PSI or less. Can you tell where the water hammer is, what pipes did they replace and does the noise come from that area? Did they install a new main air vent and replace the radiator air vents.



New boilers have much smaller steam chests so the near boiler piping becomes critical. Does it look like the installer followed the piping diagram in the installation manual? Post some pictures of the boiler and the pipes coming and going from it from the front and back.

Jared

Information

I will post the model and pictures when I get home tonight but the piping near the boiler was reused from the previous model. Both were made by Bryant but I noticed that the newer one has a higher output BTU rating. The operating pressure is 1 psi or less and I have checked/replaced all of the vents including the main vent at the end of the return line. You’ve got me wondering though if the increased output or the reusing of the existing piping is causing the issue.

Jared

Model/Pictures

The new boiler is a Bryant BS2. Pictures of the piping attached.

Rod

Boiler Pictures

Hi-  I enhanced your picture so it will be more easy to see the detail.  Could you take / .post one more picture of the end of the boiler by the water heater ?  The one you posted shows the lower piping only and we need one showing the upper steam piping.

.

Other questions- What is the pipe size of what I labeled the equalizer pipe?

What is the size of the return piping going into the boiler?



Things missing-  You don't have a Hartford Loop. You should also have a pipe attached to the safety valve to lead steam away to a safe area near the floor .

- Rod

                            

JStar

RE

Looks like a few things are wrong.



The header needs to be a minimum of 24" above the water line. You have a lot of space above the boiler, so that dimension should be raised even higher. Maybe closer to 36"



The return is not piped properly. The wet return seems very close to the water line. As also mentioned, there is no Hartford Loop, which raises safety issues. The equalizer may also be causing a bit of noise the way it currently is.



Can you isolate where the noise is mostly coming from? The boiler, or the system piping?

Rod

Bryant I&O Manual

Hi- I found the I&O manual and have attached a copy. Also attached a diagram from the manual showing how the piping is "ideally" done. I've circled items that need to be addressed..  I think your present system can be modified fairly easy to comply.

- Rod

BobC

Near boiler piping is suspect

i searched the internet for an installation manual but all I could find was a general pamphlet that details the size and specifications. Did the installer leave anything that looks like it has a piping diagram?



How old was the boiler that this BS2 replaced? As i said in an earlier post newer boilers are pretty fussy about near boiler piping. As Rod and Jstar have pointed out there are issues with this near boiler piping. The header has to be higher (at least 24" above the normal water line, and preferably higher). The equalizer pipe coming down to the return (lower tapping on the boiler looks too small, it is usually 1-1/4 to 1-1/2" and usually ties in with a hartford loop for safety reasons. 



The water hammer you are hearing may well be caused by the way it is piped but a partially clogged return line could contribute also; it sounds like the water hammer happens mid cycle if I understand correctly. The near boiler piping does not look good and should be repiped like the diagram that Rod gave you. That is the way the manufacturer wants it installed.



Bob

Techman

Return line

Is the return line at the boiler sized properly?

Steamhead

That Bryant is a re-branded Dunkirk Plymouth

which is known to be very sensitive to improper piping.



Another problem is the steam outlet is 2-1/2" but it has been bushed down to 2". This increases the steam velocity and can draw water out of the boiler and up to the system, which can cause banging. Have it re-piped properly with a full 2-1/2" header.



Like this.

Jared

Wow

Thank you all for the amazing response. I will get the additional information / pictures posted tomorrow. Assuming the near boiler piping needs to be reworked to what is mentioned, what would be the approximate cost for that? Also, it that something that is typically included with the installation of a new boiler? Just wondering why the installer did not make the changes that everyone is suggesting.

Rod

New Boiler

Hi - Sorry we can't help you with pricing as it is against this website's rules to discuss it.   I would question whether the person who did this install knew any thing about steam as there are too many things in the install that break the cardinal rules of steam. It's also rather obvious that they didn't bother reading the I&O manual. You might want to  take a look in the "Find a Contractor" section at the top of the page as there are some very good steam men listed there.

- Rod

nicholas bonham-carter

Disappointments with new boiler

Have a look at your contract with the installer, and see if there is any mention of installing the boiler according to manufacturers instructions (piping sizes and layout). Or was this job done by the low bidder as cheaply as possible?

I would think that there should be a legal requirement to do so as otherwise the mfg's warranty could be void.--NBC

Jared

New Boiler Piping

I tried the find a contractor link and unfortunately there’s nobody within 50 miles. Unfortunately the old boiler died in a cold stretch and I made the mistake of using the company that could get a new one installed soonest. I will try to shop around locally to see if there are any steam experts around that can get these issues resolved.



To answer a previous question the source of the hammer seems to be the return line that runs the length of the house. The pitch seems to be correct but there is a large U in it between the main vent and the piece that goes back to the boiler that I don’t understand. Not sure if this was originally done intentionally or if they just made due with the piping they had. I will post a diagram later to explain what I am talking about. Thanks again to everyone for taking the time to offer suggestions.

BobC

Now what

Jared,



Try talking to the original installer and ask why the manufacturers recommended piping diagram was not used, have a copy of the I/O manual on hand to show him. If you don't have the original manual print out the manual Rod sent as a PDF attachment. Assuming there is nothing in the original contract about following manufacturers piping recommendations this could cost you some additional money. Unfortunate as that may be it will save you money and peace of mind in the long run. A properly installed boiler will last you a long time, an improperly installed boiler will not last as long as it should.



If that does not get any results then contact the manufacturer directly and see if they can help you.They may not honor the warranty if the boiler is not installed per their recommendations.



good luck,



Bob

Jared

Diagram

Below is a diagram of the return piping at the end of the return run that is behind the wall so you can’t see it in my previous pictures. As I mentioned I have narrowed the hammer down to the return line so I’m wondering if this bit may be the root of the problem or if this is typical return piping between the main vent and connection back to the boiler.

Jamie Hall

One does sometimes wonder...

If folks just used up extra pipes and fittings...



That return line arrangement shouldn't give problems, probably.. provided the boiler water line wasn't changed.  If it was lowered, and that upper part of the U is now dry, that's a problem.  Unless I am mistaken, that upper part of the U should be wet.  The pipe labelled "another equalizer" shouldn't either -- it's a drip -- if the water level is OK.  Therefore the question:  was the water line changed when the new boiler was installed? Do you have any way to find out or remember? The new boiler should have been installed so that the water line of the new boiler was at the same elevation -- give or take and inch or two -- as the old boiler. If it was lowered, which is not uncommon, that may be giving you problems as well.



The near boiler piping has to be fixed, no two ways about it; the manufacturer's diagrams are minimum requirements, not suggestions...

Jared

Piping

Thank you Jamie. I plan on replacing the near boiler piping also but wasn’t sure if I needed to add this to the list. I honestly do not remember where the water line connected on the old unit but it now connects to the return line near the side of the boiler probably a foot off the ground. Looking at the second picture I posted I’m guessing it’s the same spot based on the original fitting being reused.

ChrisJ

Not a pro but,

A possibility is the return you have banging used to be a dry return and is now backing up with water.  Another possibility as Jamie Hall pointed out is that return used to be a wet return and now the water line is lower, causing it to be partially filled with water and steam which is also bad.

Jamie Hall

Water Line

I didn't mean where a physical pipe connected -- what I meant was, at what elevation off the floor did the water stand in the gauge glass on the old boiler?  I have a nasty suspicion that ChrisJ's second option -- that this used to be a wet return and is now dry -- may be correct; if so, that is a real problem.  It can be fixed...

Jared

Gotcha

Ahh that water line. I think you may be right as I remember the older boiler having the sight glass/water line at a lower level than the new one. Therefore I’m guessing the drip in the diagram may now be wet near the bottom rather than dry. I will measure to verify and report back.