Anyone using InnoFlue?

Tim McElwain

This is a product from Centrotherm Eco Systems. It is a polypropylene vent system. It is based on ULC S636. It can be used up to 230°F or (110° C). it is zero clearance to combustibles. It can be used with oil, propane and gas fired appliances.



They claim cost comparison on 3" diameter 24 foot long system with 4 elbows. Estimated labor rate of $40 per hour PVC material cost $167, labor $120 total $287. For CPVC material $520 labor $120 total $640. Compared to InnoFlue material $172 labor $60 total $232. Very interesting.



To check it out go to <a href="http://www.centrotherm.us.com/">www.centrotherm.us.com</a>

Robert O'Brien

Yes

It's the way to go! 

CMadatMe

Been Using It

For about a year now. Cost is pretty competative to PVC for a VENT SYSTEM that carries a 10 yr warranty and is rated for its application.

Paul Pollets

Centrotherm

I've been installing the product for a year. Costs far less than SS or the combi pipe from Viessmann, but my labor costs are higher than their comparable.  I like the product and the termination fittings.

Mark Eatherton

Never trust some who tells you what YOUR cost of doing business is....

The price they are allowing for labor, in some cases, will not even cover the direct labor costs of a qualified technician. It may reflect THEIR hourly labor costs, but their costs of doing business are completely different, and are not relevant.



If there is a potential labor savings, then tell me what the difference is in hours, and I will make my own assessment as it pertains to the costs of the labor, but please don't try and tell me how much I should be charging for my services.



Respectfully,



ME

CMadatMe

It's Quicker

I'd say its a quicker installation Mark. No glue, same hole thru the wall. Your not doing anything you currently don't do with PVC.

Mark Eatherton

Not questioning the amount of physical labor Chris...

I've worked with the Viessmann venting system before, so am familiar with the differences, it just makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck when a manufacturer sets and establishes bad precedents as it pertains to labor costs.



The consumer see's this and decides that the going price for labor shouldn't be more than $40.00 per hour. Or worse yet, a newby to the trades see's it and decides that is what they are going to charge, without even knowing what their hourly cost of doing business even is.



Tell me the hours required to do the job, and I will do the math for MY business.



Material costs may be slightly higher, but as you've noted many times before, it comes with a warranty, which justifies the higher costs. And, most importantly, it is APPROVED by the AHJ for that specific application.



Next, they will start telling us how much profit margin we are allowed to take....



BTW, Paul Pollets, whom I trust implicitly, says it has a higher labor factor than the equivalent in PVC. I can see, depending upon the installation, where it could be more expensive than the alternatives.



Anything of value MUST be sold...



ME

zacmobile

gaskets

I am in Canada and one of my suppliers just started carrying it yesterday, it is about 1/2 the price of System 636 CPVC, the Grey stuff which we have to use on any boiler here, even though I can hold my hand over the exhaust of my Vitodens 200 when it's producing hot water. (riddle me that mr. inspector)

However, the gas inspector said we can't use any gasketed fitting in a concealed space (ceiling, wall cavity etc.)  have to use solvent weld in this case unless we cut inspection holes at every joint. Seems like they're playing catchup and don't know how to handle this stuff yet.

Mark Eatherton

Do they require inspection ports for the approved Stainless Steel systems with gaskets?

If not, seems as though there is some AHJ bias towards the plastic products...



As has been noted by others, the approved SS pipes have had issues with condensate (if it leaks water, will it leak a deadly gas?) leaks at multiple sectioned fittings that are typically sealed with RTV silicone.



What say ye my Canookian friends? Eh?



ME

CMadatMe

I agree with You

I don't like seeing them do that either. Each business requires to charge what it needs to operate and make a profit. Nobody has a right to tell you what to charge. Its up to the consumer whether they want to pay your price or the other guys.

Paul Pollets

To Mark E...

Just to qualify my remark, my labor costs are significantly higher than $40./hr.  Installing the PPE pipe takes about the same time as would PVC. 

I'm also not a fan of manufacturer's pulling an hourly labo rate out of the air, which could be easily misinterpretted for the reasons you stated. 

That being said, the PPE pipe costs less than SS  or Co-pipe and is rated for vent temperatures.

Mark Eatherton

Thanks for the clarification Paul...

I should have read your statement closer...



ME

Tim McElwain

Went to the source today

of the ad concerning $40 labor charge. They were in no way inferring any particular rate but simply trying to illustrate a point concerning cost comparison of material and giving some kind of equation for labor also. They may simply change the ad in the future and list an estimated time of installation and let everyone punch in there labor charges. Notice I said estimated.



I will say we sure can be nit picking here on this Forum. Nothing gets by. I am still trying to figure out a couple of questions I have been asked on particular subjects as to how to answer them and be as politically correct as I can be. Maybe I will take the over 70 year old approach, I can say anything and let the chips fall were they will!  

Mark Eatherton

Nit picking?

One mans nit picking is another mans quest for correct details.



Not pointing out such discrepancies leads to bad situations.



Call it what ever you want, but in a public forum such as this, things get taken out of context, and cause hard feelings. I hope I've not caused you to have any hard feelings or feel nit picked Tim. I just like to see ALL of the relevant details layed out correctly.



As for being politically correct, I don't worry about being politically correct as much as I worry about the truth getting put out where people can make up their own minds.



Politicians have a way of making me see red...



As for companies "estimating" labor, why don't they hire a professional to perform the installation of both and eliminate the guessing. Marketing departments are known to bend things in their direction to make themselves look good. You don't see Veiga guesstimating their Pro Press product. They actually had pro installers use the tool and document the savings. That holds a lot more sway in my book than an estimate put together by the advertising/marketing department.



As for letting it all hang out, go for it :-) If someone gets offended, so be it. I come here to educate and learn. I calls 'em the way I sees 'em...



ME (The Eternal Nit Picker)

Tim McElwain

Mark, no one said nit picking is bad!

I tend to do some of that myself. I am not sure if you get the private e-mails I do concerning what is posted here. There are some who post who tend to think I work for the equipment manufacturers or something and they can get pretty nasty in their unidentified e-mails to me. The discussion for example on PVC/CPVC has stirred up a couple of contractors to let me know in no uncertain terms what they think. They call it "my campaign to eliminate plastic venting". Well that is not my goal that is for sure. As always my goal is relative to short term and long term safety. Well anyway I still love ya brother and keep nit picking.

Mark Eatherton

Thanks Tim...

Us "Old Guys" gotta stick together :-)



A person needs skin as tough as a Rhino if they are to hang here at the wall...



People WRONGLY assume certain things, like who pays your bills, and mine.



Keep up the good work.



ME

Henry

Inspection holes

As a voting member of the B149 gas codes, I can assure yo that your inspector is WRONG. Ask him where his province has amended the code with this!

Veismann did the same trick for labour when they had the gas valve gasket problem. They dictated our labour. Guess what, we did not perform one recall nor have we installed any of their boilers since. I have replaced a number of their cast iron boilers, since.



$40 is not even our union mandated basic hourly labour cost. This does not include workman's compensation, various funds that we have to pay to etc.. We make less than 10% on labour

Fireman

Another Player on the Poly pipe front

There is also another player here on the polypropylene pipe front -- M&G DuraVent with their "PolyPro" brand.

DuraVent is the North American subsidiary of Muelink and Grol out of the Netherlands. Anyone that has installed Veissmann high-efficiency gas boilers will recognize the name "MUGRO" which is their concentric pipe. PolyPro is the single-wall version. It is now widely available.

CMadatMe

UL173

A couple problems with the PolyPro. Availability is horrible having past experience getting 4" out of them. It is also nit UL 1738 approved which InnoFlue now has.

Henry

Non specified venting systems

Foar Canadian installers, if the certified installation manual that comes with the appliance does not specify a polypro material, you are not allowed to use it. The certified installation manual, specifies which material may be used and only those that are there, can you install.

In the US, I would worry about liability issues if there were a problem. and one used a material that is not specified.



Henry

Robert O'Brien

So?

A UL listed venting material is not OK and and PVC is? Just because the manufacturer says so?

Robert O'Brien

So?

A UL listed venting material is not OK and and PVC is? Just because the manufacturer says so?

Henry

Mfg manual is the rule

Just because something is listed UL does not mean it is approved for use by a certain appliance manufacturer. The manufacturer has performed certified testing to ensure that the venting material that he recommends, is safe to be used with HIS appliance. The certified I&O manual rules how to install and what to use and how to make it run, safely!

Sellers of polypro vents need to have their product approved by the manufacturer in his I & O manual. Otherwise, one risks of getting tagged or be in litigation if there is a problem with the vent material and the equipment. A note from the vent manufacturer saying that is an approved product will not work here. It is the manufacturer that approves the product.

Robert O'Brien

I'm not questioning

What you say,just the system that allows a boiler manufacturer to approve PVC for venting when the PV C manufacturer states it is not be used for venting products of combustion. And the PP is manufactured explicitly for venting combustion appliances and is listed for such,yet it's not allowed?

Tim McElwain

Some more information

on this topic:



Centrotherm's InnoFlue vent systems UL-listed

Centrotherm Eco Systems, maker of polypropylene venting technology, reported that its InnoFlue-branded single wall, flexible and concentric vent systems have been tested and are now listed to UL 1738. To date, InnoFlue is the only plastic vent that has earned this listing under the only standard in the USA that is specifically designed to test and list vent systems for Category II & IV heating appliances. For further information, go to [u][color=#0000ff]www.intertek.com[/color][/u] or [u][color=#0000ff]www.centrotherm.us.com[/color][/u].

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)

I'll second that emotion

I'm with ME 100%. I came to the conclusion long, long, ago that manufacturer-based projections of either labor hours or, worst of all, how much the labor should cost, were made up by the same wizards of fantasy who dictate warranty-hours they are willing to pay for failed components.



The Plexvent letter stands out in recent memory. Caused grief on every one we replaced and the owners had to sign off on paying us the cost difference for the absurdly-low labor-cost-projections before we would start the work.



Personally, I'd prefer they don't swim in our pond. Don't predict the number of hours - 99% of our jobs are not cookie-cutter installations. And as ME points out so well, do not place a bounty on our heads by listing a suggested installation price. I'd much rather see something like "professional mechanical contractors have stated our product can be installed in the same amount of time as other venting systems" and then pay someone like PP to appear in the ad with one of his stunning installations. As a contractor, I'd take Paul's word over any slick wording crafted for an ad. If the merits of the product are worthy, its cost-factor is greatly diminished or not a factor. We can sell ice to Eskimos if the merits of the ice have been first sold to us. We sell what we believe in and our customers buy what we promote because we have more credibility and we're invited into their homes. We also have the ability to gently steer them away from things they thought were OK from ads they read to products we believe in from experience. Street cred!  

Gentleman_Jim

InnoFlue

I am from Centrotherm...Should have responded sooner. We did not mean to offend or set labor rates. In NYC alone i have been quoted rates from $200-$400/hr. Obviously where you are and your performance will dictate your rate. We used the lowest rates and competitor prices to make a point; not to most of you, but to the many that state "it costs more than PVC so I will keep using PVC till someone makes me change". This is not the view of those posting here. I apologize on behalf of Centrotherm if you felt we were trying to cut into your livelihood or diminish your worth.

As for the code; ICC states 2 very specific requirements. The only one anyone seems to pay attention to is that it is in the appliance manufacturers installation instructions. The second and equally important requirement is that the vent be listed. UL-1738 is the combustion gas vent safety standard (listing)for category II, III & IV appliances in the USA as ULC S-636 is in Canada. The difference is Canada came out and restated that fact to the industry, while in the US the preference seems to stay vague. I believe at this time only Viessmann calls out UL-1738 in their installation instructions while most others prefer to use a DWV standard which states clearly it does not test for combustion gases. Currently to UL-1738 your options are us InnoFlue and the SS products. 

Keep in mind UL has built in safety margins that they include in their vent tests. The operational tests performed on appliances are on brand new, should have no problem, best case scenario appliance tests. That the vent works is somewhat secondary except for max vent lengths. The labs perform no leak tests on the vent during appliance tests.