cracked boiler/ white smoke

Mike_D

My boiler is cracked internally. I may have a cracked section or two? I was thinking about fixing it myself, but from what I have read, it looks like my header is piped incorrectly. At the very least, the copper needs to be replaced (copper in the return as well). My system is a one pipe with a wet return. The main with the return is the one that comes off the front of the header. There is also a leg that is two pipe, but it looks like the contractor hooked up the return to the rear riser which I also believe is wrong. I'm not sure I'm prepared to take this on without some help. What do you guys think?

Jamie Hall

Not good...

White smoke is not a good sign... somewhere you have a crack or two, or a just plain ordinary rotted out section in there.  Fixing it yourself is going to be a really big job; my own preference would be to replace the whole boiler while you're at it (yes, I know it's more expensive -- but if one or two sections are cracked or rotted out, how long will it be before another one goes... and then another one...).



Of course, you can get and install a boiler by yourself, too...



The near boiler piping is not good, and should be all redone in full accordance with the boiler manufacturer's specs.  It may not have had anything to do with the current problem with the boiler -- if that is a cast iron main header, most likely not -- but the way it is set up now you have steam trying to go both ways in that header, and condensate trying to go the other way, and you can't possibly be getting as good steaming as you should be.  Not sure I quite follow what you mean by the return from the two pipe section being hooked up to the rear riser, but it doesn't sound right to me.

JProbber

It's not smoke

Mike -- I spent the past three heating season staring at "white smoke" coming out of my chimney, and wondering why half of my radiators didn't heat. It's not smoke. It's steam. And it's money. And I was an idiot.



The techs from my "full service" oil dealer stared at the chimney with me, theorized that my chimney was wet, then got back in their van and split.



Your boiler has cracked, or has a hole. It's not a do-it-yourself project. I'm undergoing the same process right now. You should certainly worry about the near-boiler piping, but the elephant in the room is that you need new cast iron. Find someone who know and understands steam. I've gotten a bunch of quotes for my own boiler replacement, but only one dealer knows the drill. Not coincidentally, it lists on this site. An experienced steam person will do the near-boiler piping properly.



Your reward will be..after that...you'll be in a position to evaluate the rest of your system and spend more money.

Rod

Not a Good Installation

Hi- I'll just echo what Jamie says. You need a new boiler.  The piping configuration is pretty bad and may have contributed to your boiler's problems.  The installation should have following the boiler manufacturer's installation instructions.  I can see at least half a dozen things wrong.  I'm not quite sure what advice we can give you at this point. The best thing to do would be to get a steam pro to take a look at it for you. Look in the Find a Contractor section at the top of the page as there are a lot of good guys listed there. Do you have Dan's steam books? If not, you might want to get them. They have all you need to know about residential steam heating. They are easy reading and written for some one new to steam heating. Here's a link to them: http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Super-Deals/14/129/A-Steamy-Deal

There is also a lot of good information in the Resources section at the top of this page.

Here is a link to a video by Dan, on the importance of the proper configuration of the boiler piping. http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/107/Steam-Heating/118/Steam-boiler-near-boiler-piping  

I "tweeked" your pictures a bit so others can see and comment. Let us know what questions you have and we'll do our best to help you.

- Rod

Steamhead

And

you'll be able to get a better boiler. Even if piped correctly and perfectly clean, those side-outlet steamers aren't great. And atmospheric gas burners aren't that efficient.



Here are pics of two of the most efficient gas steamers available- the Smith 8 series and Slant/Fin Intrepid, both equipped with Carlin power gas burners.

JProbber

I really hunger after a Smith

..but I'm guessing I'll be out of the house within 5 years. So I'm having vendors quote less expensive boilers.

icesailor

Boiler Connections:

If I may ask,

what is the function of the 3/4" copper line that connects to the rear copper steam riser and rising up to some arrangement above the boiler that looks like some auto fill. Is that correct on a steamer to have the cold water fill entering above the steam line? I was taught that the cold water fill/feed should go into the bottom of the boiler.

For my own understanding, would a steam header/chest going across from front to back with the risers coming off that where it is connected be a more correct hook-up? It would have been interesting to see how the original boiler was connected. I'm sure it wasn't like that.

Where I work, there are very few steamers. I worked on a few in my time. Nothing that ever looked like this.

Steamhead

That's actually a return connection

the return comes back, there's a vent and then it drops into that steam riser. You can see it better in the center pic. The vent wouldn't do much good since the steam coming up from the boiler would quickly close it.



The feeder is close to this, but its1/2" line goes back behind the boiler.



This is one more indication that whoever installed this boiler didn't know what they were doing.

crash2009

Yes, the piping sure is a mess

  It will be expensive to straighten it out.  If you are handy and have the tools, you could do it yourself.  The last job is just plain wrong.  You have all summer to do it.  You could bust it out yourself for sure, that would save you some $$.  



I suppose that if that just got thrown in my lap, I would start with figuring out what kind of radiators I have and what size they are.  Could you post a few pictures of the radiators that you have?  A new boiler is selected based upon the heating capacity of the existing radiators.  (measure the EDR)  We can help you figure out what size of new boiler you need.  You can't just go with whats there now, who knows if the last one was the correct size.

Steamhead

Satisfy your hunger

a better boiler is an advantage when it's time to sell. If you can show that your operating expenses are less than those of the house down the street that's also on the market, it will help you make the sale AND you'll be more likely to get your price.

Rod

Layout of the Mains

Hi Mike-  Perhaps you can give us some more information about your system as this would give us a better idea of what is needed.  I've labeled what I think are Steam Mains in your picture  as Main "A", "B" and "C" . If you could give us answers to the following questions it will give us a better understanding as to how your system is laid out.  Each Steam Main needs to have its own Main Vent which can be installed either at the far end of the Main away from the Boiler or on the Return. If the Main doesn't have a return then it is located on the far end of the main.



Questions:

Main "A" -

1.  Overall does this pipe slope way from or towards the boiler?

2. Does Main"A" have a return pipe leading from the furthest end of Main"A" back to the boiler?

3. Does Main "A" have a Main Vent like the one pictured? If so where is the vent located?



Main "B" -



1.  Overall does this pipe slope way from or towards the boiler?



2. Does Main"B" have a return pipe leading from the furthest end of Main"B" back to the boiler?



3. Does Main "B" have a Main Vent like the one pictured? If so where is the vent located?



Main "C" -



1.  Overall does this pipe slope way from or towards the boiler?



2. Does Main"C" have a return pipe leading from the furthest end of Main"C" back to the boiler?



3. Does Main "C" have a Main Vent like the one pictured? If so where is the vent located?



Are you familiar with the terms Parallel Flow and Counter Flow Mains?

Do you have the installation manual for your boiler?

- Rod

Charlie from wmass

That 3/4" looks to be

a drip off the feed. It is going from the main on the left back into the riser.

jonny88

?for steamhead

i have a ?regarding the installation of the red boiler you posted.i thought it was necessary to take two headers out of the boiler.i see you capped one outlet.im not knocking your installation just tryingg to learn that is all.

Steamhead

On that model

the I&O manual says only one riser is needed. We use a nipple and cap instead of a plug so we have access in case we need to flush it out with a hose. The more accessible openings, the better!

Mike_D

general reply

Thanks alot guys!

I didn't expect so many repies. I'm going to reply to the few of you with specific questions. I really appreciate it everybody!

Regards

Mike_D

3/4" pipe

That 3/4" pipe comes from the traps in the 2 pipe zone.

Mike_D

radiators

Most of the radiators in the house are AERO. One looks identical in regards to the secectional dimentions, is a Thatcher Gothic. In the 2 pipe zone there is cast iron baseboard radiators installed in the 60's; no name. They line 3 walls of the pantry off the kitchen (kitchen has no place for a radiator after remodeling in 60's). The attic has no heat. I considered tapping off the 2nd floor to put an old radiator up there (future possibility).

Mike_D

system layout

Hey Rod,

Main C has a wet return. I believe it is parallel flow (meaning steam & condensate moving the same direction). I have a picture of where a vent should be at the end of C. Main B has no return. I believe that is counter flow (meaning steam & condensate moving in opposite directions). Correct me if I'm wrong; I read this stuff a couple months ago. Main A is the same as B. I have also measured the pipe off the boiler; see the picture. The red dots are where the 2 pipe zone tie in.

Mike_D

dunkirk boiler (14 years old)

Also, I do have the manual. Yes, I have read it but not memorized yet...

Mike_D

boiler size

Hey Crash,

I agree. I did look at all my radiators and mapped the piping. See the pics I posted.

crash2009

Thatcher Gothic

See page 39  http://www.heatinghelp.com/files/articles/1066/338.pdf  The EDR's start on page 40

You will need to know the height of yours, how many tubes, and how many sections. 

For example 3 tube, 38" tall, 2 sections, equals 7 EDR

                  3 tube, 20" tall, 2 sections, equals 3.5 EDR

Thatcher made their Gothic with 3,4,5,or 6 tubes, and i think as many as 7 tubes.



There is a book for sale here from the website named EDR "every darn radiator"

Aero tube style radiators are listed on page 147

 http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Books/5/80/E-D-R-Ratings-for-Every-Darn-Radiator-and-convector-youll-probably-ever-see

I am unable to find EDR for cast iron baseboard

Mike_D

thatcherco

thanks Crash

Rod

Dan's Books?

Mike- Do you have Dan's steam books? I'm just wondering as if you have them I can refer to a certain page which will give you better explanation and drawings than I can provide.

- Rod

Mike_D

Dan's books

Rod,

I'm only smart enough to be dangerous; I don't have them yet. Even if I did, I might still be dangerous...

crash2009

Example

Here is an example of what you need to measure.  Get the total height from the bottom of the legs to the highest point.  Then count how many tubes.  Then count how many sections.



The rad in the photo has 10 sections and 5 tubes.  The height is not shown.  If we liook at the chart, that rad could be between 50 and (26 and 2/3rds) EDR depending on the height.



Your sunroom rad is 64 EDR, providing that the total height is 20", it has 24 sections, and 5 tubes.  The total length, 2.5"/section, is listed as 60".  

moneypitfeeder

baseboard

The baseboard calc I used for mine because they match the pic/ dimensions in LAOSH was the given 3.4 Sq. Ft. per linear foot. Height of my rads are 10" width 2-1/2" and were made by Crane. I have to echo some of the others and recommend you pick up Dan's books. They are written so that even a homeowner with zero background in steam can glean some knowledge from them.