Looking for a partner...

Mark Eatherton

Looking for a partner...

Greetings fellow Wallies.



In a recent field survey of commercial, multi family residential settings gas fired boilers, almost 50% of the boilers tested had CO in excess of allowable standards. None of the boilers tested were showing signs of flue gas spillage, but the presence of excess CO in the first place is quite concerning to me. None of these boilers were receiving any kind of annual maintenance (If its hot, don't mess with it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and NEVER look under the hood...) so the findings weren't really all that surprising..



What I am trying to do here is to get the State of Colorado boiler inspectors to perform a cursory flue gas analysis to see if there is significant CO present in the flue gas stream, indicating SOME sort of problem (dirty burners, misaligned burners, improper adjustment, etc) and I really don't expect the inspectors to determine WHY the appliance is producing excess CO. That is not their job. The responsibility for fixing the appliance would fall directly on the shoulders of the appliance owners.



What I am soliciting here, is a single gas analyzer manufacturer (Carbon Monoxide only) flue gas sampler that would be willing to provide product at or below cost as a demonstration/pilot program.



In trade for the product, the State would provide us with the field findings that their inspectors saw in the field, thereby opening a significant potential market for State/Municipal boiler inspectors in the U.S. market to utilize their flue gas sampling devices. I will provide the necessary training to show the inspectors where the flue gas sample should be drawn from, at no charge.



If you are interested in participating in this pilot program, please contact me directly at markeathertonATmac.com



If anyone else is aware of another State or municipal boiler inspection department that HAS an active flue gas sampling program in the U.S., please contact me. I'd be interested in speaking with them about their program.



If we can save just ONE life...



Thank you for your time, and consideration.



ME

rich pickering

Not the U.S but

the province of Ontario requires all techs to check any boiler regardless of the reason for the service call.  

I don't know if stats are kept.



Henry may know.

EddieG

Keep us posted

I am interested in knowing how this pans out for you. As far as the inspectors go and the whole program for that matter.I feel this is something that is way over looked in our industry and needs attention. This is something that all states should look at. However in these economic times, it may be difficult. But if it is presented in a way that produces revenue, it becomes a whole different story. Good Luck!

Steamhead

Attaboy, ME

since these inspections are supposedly to expose safety issues, they ought to include CO testing.



But at least in the Baltimore area, inspectors only look for Code violations. I'm having a brain cramp here, and my Code books are at the office- aside from a federal limit of 400 PPM, which is way too high, can you tell us how Codes address CO?



The other issue is, boiler inspectors generally want all the plugs and LWCO units opened up so they can see inside. Obviously the boiler cannot be fired at that time. How do we work around this?

Mark Eatherton

Good question Frank...

My personal threshold is 150 PPM AF.



I think the standard you're referencing may be an ANSI standard, which was actually set up to allow ovens to continue operation. They have hot flame impinging on a cold heat shield, which is guaranteed to generate copious amounts of CO.



I'm thinking Timmie Mac is probably in church, and when he gets back, I am hoping that he will weigh in with his opinion as to the recommended threshold before an alarm is sounded.



I agree with you regarding the 400 PPM being WAY too lax. By that point, there is something SERIOUSLY wrong in the combustion process.



Thanks for chiming in.



ME

Steamhead

Ovens are allowed 800 PPM

by that outdated set of standards, likely for the reason you mention. The one in my house was higher than that, and had been for years- it was the first thing I tested when I got my first Testo. I got it down to about 20 PPM.



I would assume that if the boiler is opened up for inspection, the inspector would have to come back later to do the CO test. Who pays for that?

Mark Eatherton

I'd prefer to see...

If the inspector is doing an open fire box inspection, the opening/closing contractor SHOULD be required to perform the analysis after they close it up and set the burners back up again. We don't have that many big openable boilers in multi family dwelling settings out here in Colorado. Most of that class of boiler would be a power boiler or industrial process boiler.



ME

Steamhead

In Baltimore

many apartment buildings have boilers you can open at least partially- cast-iron sectional, Scotch-Marine, whatever- and some inspectors want them opened as far as they can go. They want to look at both the fire side and water side. On a smaller cast-iron boiler you'd pull the front plate, cleanout covers and flue collector as well as inspection plugs.



Depending on the size and design of the boiler, putting it back together might take a while, delaying the CO test, which ties up the inspector. The inspector SHOULD either do the CO test personally or be present when the contractor does it, and in the latter case should require a current analyzer certification from the contractor.



I'm not trying to say all this shouldn't be done, but the logistics would reduce the number of inspections that one person could do in a day. Of course it's worth it, but the fact remains that someone has to foot the bill for more inspectors.

tim smith

Re: CO Limits

Here in our county, the CO limit is set by the utility for natural gas. Max is 100ppm. We did get them to go a little higher due to some of the modcon mfrs are showing at least 80ppm is what they want to keep stable light off. Some older equipment is a challenge to get a real clean burn, the old cast iron burners have flaked awasy some of the burner port openings widening them some. This messes with the combustion to a point that getting air to entrain properly is a pain sometimes.  Good luck on your challenge ME. Ps, whenever our utility goes into a house or building the do a CO check. Tim

Tim McElwain

I plan to get back to this

posting as I am quite interested in what Mark is proposing. I am busy with a special project for the next two days but will post my feelings here on this subject.

Mark Eatherton

I look forward to your comments Tim...

and anyone else who is interested in commenting, positively or negatively :-)



ME

Plumdog_2

Time has come

That whole system (State Boiler Inspections) has stagnated for years (at least in Colo). LWCO's; PRV's; Combustion Air. That's about it. Sometimes I can't believe it when I see the Inspection has passed. But, I guess they don't want aggravated customers. 

Tim McElwain

This is a great idea you have Mark

I just hope you can get it going. It comes down to who is responsible for the installation itself. In the case of multi-family many times there is a local agency that is maintaining the equipment. I am assuming you are looking for inspectors to go out and do annual inspections. I again applaud the idea but knowing local inspectors they are already so busy they have a hard time inspecting everything that is now their responsibility.



As for levels of CO it looks like BPI is setting the rules and local auditors who are shutting equipment down with levels above 30 PPM Air free in many locations. I have had calls from several boiler manufacturers who ask me what I teach as a correct level in the flue sample.



Well here goes the ANSI standard says the ALLOWABLE IS 400 PPM air free for boilers, furnace and water heaters. For cooking gas stoves the oven ALLOWABLE  is 800 PPM that by the way is going into the living space if there is no vent hood. I might ask how many check gas ovens when in the customers home?



Here is what I teach, maximum on boilers, furnaces and water heaters 100PPM unless specified different by the equipment manufacturer. How low should we go well as low as we can with proper input to the equipment working with the maximum firing rate of the equipment



As for gas ovens under 50 PPM air free. I have rarely ever left an oven over 25 to 30 PPM air free. It is my take that residential gas stoves and ovens should be required to have a vent hood and be interlocked with the vent hood fan much like commercial cooking systems. They should also be equipped with a make up air provision when operating.



Unvented heaters the standard is 200 PPM, to the best of my knowledge there has never been an CO incident with any of those heaters. They are required to have an Oxygen Depletion Safety pilot that will be shut off if the O2 level goes below 18%. All of them I have ever tested work very well when starved for air. I like to see those at about 25 PPM air free CO.



Mark I am sending you some names by e-mail that you might contact about your project. I also sent an e-mail to a local official at the local utility asking some very direct questions about who tests what and when hopefully he will be free to answer me.

Mark Eatherton

Thanks Tim...

I appreciate your effort. Hopefully something good will come out of this.



ME