On the Vitodens 200-W, WB2B

Tim McElwain

Lambda-Pro combustion system does anyone know what the microamp signal produced is in microamps or is it DC amps. I can't get an answer from anyone and my notes from Viessmann school I attended are not clear.



I never get my e-mails to Viessmann answered I guess because I am not an installer who knows?

CMadatMe

Ionization Current

Tim,



Are you looking for the ionization current? I also don't have that anywhere in anyting that I have. I'm assuming your looking for the measurement as it pertains to fault code F4 "No Flame Signal."



I sent an e-mail off. Haven't had to perform that measurement so never looked for it.

CMadatMe

Dbl Post Sorry

Tim McElwain

Yes that is what

I am looking for. My notes from school are confusing as I have two different answers one says 22 microamps the other says 4 volts DC. My inquiries to Jody Samuel are never answered, he never answers phone calls or e-mails. Is there someone else there who has any answers and some authority to make decisions.



There troubleshooting procedures leave a lot to be desired and the manuals really need to be rewritten this is the most difficult Mod/Con manual so far to write. they need to have a defined troubleshooting manual. When I am done figuring all this out hopefully that is what I will have created.



Thank goodness I have been able to hook up with you Chris or I would be in trouble.



One gent I talked to at Viessmann stated he would prefer to not give me any information as they only want techs to use their manuals and find anything else that would be written we be loaded with errors. Then he hung up on me.



I must say all the other boiler companies I have talked to have been extremely cooperative. Lochinvar just sent me their entire training set-up, great stuff.

CMadatMe

The Viessmann Way

That's the Viessmann way. They are very protective. Ian Lindsey is running Viessmann US until a replacement for Rich is found.



Hopefully I can get an anwser for you and for me. Like I said, I haven't had a situation where I had to perform that procedure so never looked for it. In the next week or so they are also giving another vent alternative to the current venting material. They are basically taking the polyprop currently used in the coaxial and offering that as another venting method. I have a couple of issues with it which I have passed on waiting for an answser. Has nothing to do with the vent method or the material but the lack of footage...Only offering it in 1.6 and 3.6ft...I don't like the idea of all the joints. Generally in the field if we have to 2 pipe its for a reason and only being offered 3.6ft as a max doesn't do me any good.

Robert O'Brien

I think

troubleshooting Lambda Pro by testing output of flame rod is not going to be viable method.

CMadatMe

F4

Bob,



I think Tim is trying to put in his manual what the F4 code states. They say to measure the ionization current but they don't give any info on what that current should be nor based on what parameters. If you were trouble shooting that code you wouldn't be able to perform the test based on the information given in the Viessmann Service Manual in the field without having to call the tech line. Something as easy as taking a reading shouldn't have to bog the service guy down by having to make a phone call.

CMadatMe

I e-mailed you

This anwser this morning....



It's asking to check the burners flame(ionization) signal. You will need a multi-meter that can test for microamps. (not milliamps) Also,a flame needs to be present for you to read microamps,so if the burner is not establishing a flame then there would be no microamps to read.



What you would do is remove the cable from the flame rod,set your multi-meter to microamps,connect one end of the meter to the cable and the other end to the flame rod. Reset the burner to get the burner to try to fire,and if a flame is established,read the microamps. The need to see at least 5 microamps to keep the burner from locking out. Average flame signal reading would be 15-25 microamps.

heatboy

It's basically.......

.....the same as the original Vitodens, Chris.  Minimum 5 microamps to keep from locking out.  

BrianMT24

Polypropylene Venting

HVHEHCCA -

Viessmann is offering their polypropylene venting pipe as a part of their "build-your-own chimney vent system."  Your are correct in that they only have the .5 meter and 1 meter lengths (1.6 feet and 3.3 feet respectively).  I have found those lengths to be short as well, and as a result came across the Centrotherm Innoflue Rigid Polypropylene pipe.

[u][color=#810081]http://www.centrotherm.us.com/[/color][/u]

  Centrotherm offers their vent pipe in various diameters, including the 80mm (3 inch) which is available in 2,3,and 6 foot lengths.  We have a contractor that used it on a WB2B-35 installation and was very happy with the way it all went together, especially with the strong support clamps.  Just thought that I would mention the possibility of longer lengths.

Good Luck!  

CMadatMe

InnoFlue

Brian,



I've been using it for about year now. My customers love it and price point makes it competative with the competition that is venting PVC. I'm waiting on some clarification from Viessmann concerning the product. I was turned on to this by Viessmann RI last year but since the departure of the previous general manager Canda has taken a difference in stance on its use on Vitodens.



I do not feel nor believe it has anything to do with the product since it has the same rating as the M&G brand Viessmann is selling. Rather its about sales dollars.



I also have to bely my last post concerning ionization. The information I was given was for Vitodens 100 not 200. To date there is no testing parameters for the F4 code "check ionization current" for the Vitodens 200.

Tim McElwain

Am I correct

So if I read you correctly there should not be an F4 fault code with Lambda Pro as it is going to correct for even the worst of flame conditions such as poor gas pressure, incorrect gas pressure, low or high microamps etc. If I interpret this correctly it is a fool proof process, is that correct. ? Can I safely state that it is not necessary to measure ionization flame current as there is no known figure for units here in this country?

 

CMadatMe

That Would Be

My take Tim. I can say we have been through two heating seasons with the new version and I have yet to come across the F4 error code. I do know that as the rod wears the boiler does keep adjusting. I think that is what the error code is for. It prompts you to check it. Its not a costly replacement either. Two screws and 2 minutes to replace.

Tim McElwain

So the troubleshooting

that states to check the ionization current is incorrect? If I say when in doubt change the ionization rod we would be safe yes or no? There are other codes E5, E8, E9. EA, Eb, Ec and Fd which state to check the rod and cable so might we just say replace rod and cable if in doubt?

CMadatMe

Good Question

That's a great question. You received the same e-mail as me. As of right now there is no viable reading so I would say these error codes would require the installer to have to call the tech line for verification when testing is required for ionization current. I wish I could give you a better anwser. As of right now I would stick with the phone call.

CMadatMe

Centrotherm Update

Brian,





I was told today that testing of the InnoFlue is being conducted on Vitodens for Viessmann Canada's approval. Basically dotting the i's and crossing the t's. We were given the go ahead last year from Viessmann US but my understanding from today is that Canada wanted to put it to the test specifically on the boiler even though it already has the ULC-S636 rating and meets the specifications as directed by the new vent sheet.



Kuddo's to them for stepping up to the plate with testing it specifically on their boiler and making the installation easier for their Partners even though they may loose some vent sales.

Tim McElwain

I really have a problem

with all of this. Everywhere I turn with all this new stuff it is call tech services why not just have the customer call them to service the units. We put diagnostics on the equipment and then state what to do and then call tech services. Well I think I will call Viessmann tech services and get answers to all the fault codes so I can write something that makes sense.



This is going to be the downfall of Hydronic Mod/Con Boilers. No wonder they are not selling, I guess Dan is right concerning the future of hydronic residential heating.



Here is my chapter on the Viessmann unit "Call Tech Services".I will just list the Warwick number.



We have really gone downhill when the only people who know how to fix these things are located at tech service.



Sorry to rant but I am trying to write something that is user friendly and makes sense and this does not make sense to me.



Do they check microamps in Germany? If so are they afraid we will blow ourselves up here in the USA if they give us some information.

CMadatMe

I Feel Your Frustration

Let me poke some more..Stay patient my friend...I was reading the UK version of the installation and service manual for the boiler.

http://www.viessmann.co.uk/etc/medialib/internet_uk/attachments/products/vitodens_200-w_sept.Par.51309.File.File.tmp/Service%20%2019%20to%2035%20kW.pdf

It's states the same as the american version for the ionization current. But also no current measurements or procedure for testing.



I think though I'm beginning to understand what to look for.  See page 26 of the TDM attached. Measurement of the current doesn't seem necessary. The lack of current or too much current seems to point to gas valve, inducer motor or a possible gas issue more likely with LP. Just my take..I will continue the dig though.

Tim McElwain

Yes Chris in reading

page 26 over and over again I realize that signal strength (microamps) that we usually rely heavily upon in troubleshooting this equipment may not be as big a factor. I do however feel that some figure could be established at some point to assist in the total diagnostic procedure. Kevin Flynn e-mailed me a very good explanation which i am thankful for. I have also been contacted by Ian Lindsay who is in Germany right now and I am going to call him and pose this question to him.



Thanks for your continued assistance on this.

CMadatMe

I'm Glad

To hear your getting anwsers direct from them.  Keep me in the loop and always a pleasure to help where I can.

Paul Pollets

Centrotherm & Vitodens venting

I was told that Viessmann did not approve of the Centrotherm vent because the boiler was not tested with it. Centrotherm offered to pay for the additional testing to get the additional certification, but Viessmann apparently declined. 



So proprietary, if true.

CMadatMe

Paul

I was able to get my hands on the new poly vent pipe notice that Viessmann Contractor Partners will get tomorrow via e-mail a few weeks ago. I also received a phone call from my Centrotherm rep. I am a distributer of the Centrotherm product.  I was informed by them that Canda put a stop on it. Their stance was the previous US general manager did not have the authority to authorize its use and although it is ULC-S636 rated it was not tested by them on Vitodens.



I sent an e-mail off looking for confirmation on the Centrotherm product and some issues I had with the lack of offering vent lengths that Viesmann was offering to us via their pipe. I received an anwser yesterday. Viessmann is testing the Centrotherm product for the stamp of approval on Vitodens. I was told that testing was just about finished and that it will be approved.

Paul Pollets

Good News...

I'm glad that something moved forward, rather than backward in this meshuganah industry.

Paul Pollets

Fault Codes

Tim, having serviced these units for years, I've been very concerned with the boiler faults that are not defined by a fault code. The original Vitodens 200 model was plauged by a complex design, too many parts, and failure rates that undermined customer confidence. We had to call tech services for assistance dozens of times because the code faults were either not defined or ambiguous. Or the boiler would shut down without a fault. Tech services was sometimes helpful, sometimes not. We were told to replace parts that did not need replacement, and then fight for warranty reimbursement. The new Vitodens 200 has half as many parts and seems more stable and robust than its predecessor. Time will tell.



There is a good argument that Siegenthaler has written about: cast iron appliances have far greater service life and lower life cycle costs without the complexity of mod-cons. The increased efficiency is only worth so much when units require more service and parts.

Tim McElwain

Paul I have

not heard "meshuganah" since I was dating a Jewish girl in high school. Well anyway let us hope that things on the equipment front are going to improve and especially some sense come to the venting of equipment issue.



We have folks heating PVC and CPVC with torches to get the right angle when passing through tight areas. What next?

Paul Pollets

Funny

Glad to have provoked a memory...



I'm waiting for the PVC venting issues to come to a boil.  What will happen and who will pay for vent failures using plastic pipe not rated for the temperature of the flue gas?????

Tim McElwain

Well I have been blowing

that trumpet since 5 years ago and have written several articles concerning the use of PVC and CPVC, no one seems to listen.

CMadatMe

California

I was told there was a conference call a few weeks ago with the PVC mfg's, state senators from Cali and others. Cali is getting ready to ban it....