Recourse for bad/illegal boiler install....

Charlie from wmass

I think you are right Paul

after looking at the photos that is a storage tank not an indirect. so no relief valve is needed besides whats there. I was took from the posts that they were pumping water through the coils in both the boiler and the boiler. So if they bought an indirect they never got one. The heat boy quote is coming to mind here.

It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy. Morrowed again from Mr Eatherton.

David Sutton_6

The Circ !

What looks like a taco 006 on the aqua booster is mounted in the wrong mannor, this needs to be turned 90*, 

Maestro232

guy is still here

The guy is still here.  He seems to be coming around to the fact that the piping is wrong off the boiler.  We loosened a connector on the vertical of the equilizer loop and water came out after the boiler ran for about a minute.  Water's definitely getting pushed up into the system, but he doesn't know why.

He came in not really believing me I think, but now I think he knows there is some learning for him to do.  I'm glad he wants to make it right and I want to give him the opportunity to as well as the experience.  I still wish I wasn't charged a premium for all this...but I'm giving him a little grace because he wants to make it right.

Brad White

I think at the end of the day

if your contractor is as open-minded about the right way to do this (starting with the manufacturer's IOM; "follow the instructions"), your gracious attitude and his learning and then seeing the results of nice, quiet steam, will resonate far beyond your walls.

Good luck! Keep us posted.

Maestro232

I will....

I'll definitely keep you all posted.  The tricky thing is that he doesn't see how his piping is different from the manufacturer's specs.  He wondered out loud, "I wonder if I'm not supposed to put a hartford loop in with a one pipe system."  He's definitely revealing that despite his 25 years of installing boilers he still has some things to learn.  I just wish he was apologetic.  Not one apology from him...in fact, it took forever for him to be convinced that the piping was wrong....and it cost me a day of work.



He supposedly is going to bring an outside expert with him to help...that's a good thing.  I wish I could have explained to him why water was shooting out of the equilizer and why the piping was wrong, but I understand these things even less than him...well...maybe not less than him

Paul Fredricks_3

Hard to tell..

from the pics, but it looks like this could be a counterflow system. The only pipes heading into the house are the insulated ones up top, none on the floor. If that's the case then the piping arrangement would be a little different still. If it is a counter flow, usually there are only 6 or 7 radiators in the house, and it's a smaller house. Is this correct?

Maestro232

yes...

I believe it is counterflow, if by that you mean the water trickles back to the boiler on the same line that the steam flows out of.  The house is about 1400 sq/ft and has 7 radiators....two of which are quite small.



So, based on that info, can you explain why his piping yielded water pushing up the equalizer and how it should be?

Jean-David Beyer

If it is city water pressure (>20 PSI)....

According to Taco, it is OK to have it like that. I still would not do it, but I am just a homeowner who worries about the end thrust on the bearings.

David Sutton_6

Some learning to do...

If you would like and i dont make this offer lightly,  i will be more than willing to help him repipe it the way it needs to be piped, No charge.  he surpply the DrPepper and piping.



And i do this just so he will have a chance to learn a little bit more about steam.



David

Maestro232

wow....

Wow...a very kind offer.  I'll see if he's willing.

Brad White

Now THAT

is an offer that is hard, nay, impossible to refuse.

David, there is not a lot you could do to further raise my esteem for you, but I think you just did.

tim smith

Response to Daves offer!

That is very generous Dave. I too will assist guy's who call and want to learn. I think it is only fair to give back to an industry that has given so much to me.

Mark Eatherton

One large ATTABOY!!

In true fellow Wallie form, giving back, and paying it forward. Way to go David!



ME

Paul Fredricks_3

ahh

The piping is a bit different with counterflow. And from my experience the venting at the radiators needs to be fairly slow or they spit water. Forget if your contractor is willing. Have David come to your house and get it right!

David Sutton_6

Holyoke Mass. may 12th

this may be something to share ( in a nice way ) with your contractor.



http://www.heatinghelp.com/seminar/62/Dead-Mens-Steam-Night-School-Holyoke-MA



David

aka DrPepper

Steamhead

You have to measure the draft

and if it's higher than specified, you need a barometric.



A house that old would have originally had a coal-fired boiler. Chimneys built for coal had to develop a lot of draft to pull the air thru the bed of coal. This level of draft is much higher than needed for oil or gas firing. It can suck a lot of heat out of the boiler and in some cases, pull the flame off the burner head which results in poor combustion.



If the draft is too high, it's too high, and you need to regulate it.

Steamhead

That would need to be verified

the way the pipes from the boiler go into the tank, it looks like there's a coil in there. They're in about the same place as on the SuperStor Ultra indirects we install. On a booster tank they'd be further apart so the water wouldn't short-circuit thru a small portion of the tank.



Following is from Heat Transfer Products' site regarding the Contender:



"The SuperStor® Contender® Indirect Water Heater from HTP is the result

of 25 years of indirect system manufacturing experience. The SuperStor

Contender Indirect Water Heater draws energy from a boiler and thus

does not need its own heat source. Hot boiler water flows through an

internal heat exchanger in the tank, heating the domestic water. The

SuperStor Contender’s unique smooth surface heat exchanger design

resists lime build-up, which can reduce performance and component life.

The SuperStor Contender tank is constructed of glass-lined steel and

includes an oversized anode rod to protect against corrosion of the

tank. With three gallon sizes available, the SuperStor Contender can be

used in both commercial and residential applications."



And here's a pic of a couple Contenders, again from HTP's site. They look a lot like his, don't they? Following is one of our installs using a gas-fired 8 and a SuperStor Ultra.



As I've said before, someone knowledgeable needs to look at this to be sure.

Steamhead

Ditto, David

and be sure to post some "after" pics.

BobC

it's great when a plan works.

It's great to see a problem like this working out the way it seems to be, we don't have to agree we just have to agree to be reasonable. Everybody gets to walk away with a good feeling.



The best part is the homeowner is going to be taken care of.



Bob

Maestro232

Well...

Well, it's certainly working out better for me than it could have, particularly with the extremely kind offer to help my contractor get the piping right. 





But let's be honest...



1. During the original install my property was SERIOUSLY unprofessionally treated by the contractor.  And to this day I get the impression that he still doesn't see what the big deal was.  I've had several other contractors do all sorts of various jobs on my house, and every one of them was night and day compared to his respect for my property, so I know I'm not being unfair in my judgement.



- It simply is not ok to leave someone's exterior door off it's hinges overnight...and worse yet, to have him act put out when he comes back the next day to finish the job when he finds that I have put my door back on so I can secure my premises overnight.



- It simply is not ok to leave oil residue spread across the whole basement floor after you've completed the job and left.  The cleaning of the floor before leaving  was more like spreading the oil around.  It was slippery and smelly and fumey.  They were probably just rushing at that point since it took them most of two days to do a one day job.  We cleaned up the oil and I informed him of what had happened.  Rather than apologizing he said, "you told me you weren't concened with your basement floor getting stained."  Which was true, since they were older tiles that I was just going to lay some big rugs over afterwards...but oil stains on the floor are different from actual oil on the floor.



- It's simply not ok to leave my pressure near 15psi when your done with the job.  I told him about that and rather than being apologetic he was incredulous.  But come on, I had a contractor come in and service my boiler and say, yo, all this and that was installed wrong...and did you know that your pressure was set to 15psi?"  So why won't he just own up to it and apologize for his lack of attention to detail and for potentially putting my family in a dangerous situation and for making me waste precious and expensive fuel unecessarily? 



2. I think I got seriously overcharged (at least relative to what the contractor who came and alerted me to all these problems would have charged me to do it right in the first place).  I suppose the only way to know this one for sure would be for a few other contractors to suggest about what they'd charge for the job, but seeing as the guy who came in to do the yearly on my boiler spotted all these problems, I'm assuming, that despite his drastically lower price, he would have hooked things up correctly.  And I don't think, judging by the vendor's unapologetic attitude, that I will be expecting any kind of honorable return of some monies for my trouble.



3. I lost a day of work and spent several hours trying to "help" my contractor see that his piping was wrong.  Much of this was wasting time trying to rule out the piping in my house when I kept insisting, as nicely as I could, that I have had several professionals verify that his piping is wrong.  There was something incredibly discouraging about spending most of a working day having to help the "professional" troubleshoot only to have him leave at the end of the day with total confusion about why his piping was wrong and pushing tons of water up into the system.  I paid him all that money so I wouldn't have to worry about the system being installed correctly, and there I was, having to worry about the system being installed correctly.



4. Overall, not one "I'm sorry that I've put you out" from him.  Just kind of a lack of consideration on his side in realizing what the experience has been like from the customer end and what it's cost me in spent fuel, time, and worry.  My goodness, just an apology please...it goes such a long way to know that the contractor realizes that he created a bad experience for the person who paid him lots of money and is genuinely sorry about it.  If I go to a restaurant and order a meal and they mess up the order and I inform them, they say, "I'm so sorry about that.  We'll correct it right away."  Then they bring out the correct order.  If the waiter makes excuses or doesn't own up to it I would never go back there again.  It's not the mistake that puts them on my boycott list, it's the attitude of "I don't really care that my mistake is costing you something.  I only care that my mistake is costing me the hassle of having to re-do this."



Don't get me wrong, I am very thankful that he's willing to get things right, and this DEFINITELY could have gone much worse...it's just been, overall, one of those experiences that makes one very sad to know that there are successful venders out there charging a premium for bad work and terrible customer service, and I can't wait to put this behind me and experience some decent contractors again so I can have my faith restored in humanity.

BTW, I am venting all of this because I see it as an opportunity for the helpful contractors on this site to get a peak at an installation experience from the other side.  Take from it what you will.

Paul Fredricks_3

yep

All that makes sense. I see it all the time: I always say that an attitude problem is a prerequisite for being a service tech. Many do, but not all.



One thing to be aware of. I don't know where the new boiler job ends and where the existing piping begins. Your contractor may say that the piping was like that and he just connected to it. Still doesn't mean the job was done correctly, just that it was done.



I hope all goes well with the repairs. 

Maestro232

So here's where we're at...

Wow...so the contractor called this morning.  No actual apology, but here's what he said...



"I found out that the the supplier sent me the wrong diagram.  I didn't realize you had a one pipe counterflow system.  But now that I know what kind of system you have, when I told the supplier what kind of system you had he still sent the wrong diagram.  I've never actually piped a one-pipe steam system.  But I have the correct diagram now that someone sent me...let's see, it's from "The Lost Art of Steam."  I was confused when I was doing the job because I couldn't find the return on the system.  I probably should have gotten more info at that point in the install.  I'm an honest guy, I didn't have to tell you all this."



Wow...just wow!  So he came to my house and evaluated my system, sized it, etc...and he couldn't tell at that point that what he was replacing was a one-pipe counterflow system, and he has never in fact done one before.  Only 2-pipe.



He did make the comment: "This piping will be much easier.  I don't need a hartford loop for your system."  Just checking...is that true?

Paul Fredricks_3

Yes

The Hartford loop is there to protect the boiler in the event of a return piping leak. Since there is no return piping, there is no need for the loop. The counter flow drawing in The Lost Art is what you are looking for.



Others may feel differently, but this has worked for me.

Brad White

No Deposit, No Return?

I get the sense the contractor was making a deposit, in the same way a pigeon does on your just-washed car. Not a huge confidence builder and not a whole lot of contrition, based on what you said.



But as Paul said, if it is entirely counterflow, you will have an equalizer but no "external return" coming back from the radiators. It all flows back from the supply. 



To be clear, I have not seen your specific installation personally, but that is the usual practice. Others I am sure will have different experience.

NH03865

A Nice Thank You

Since the contractor is willing to learn about a 1 pipe system and make it right, it would be great to show your appreciation for his integrity to get him a copy of "The Lost Art of Steam'  While you are at it, tell him about The Wall and all the resources available here

Maestro232

Assuming

Assuming you read the thread, you'll understand why I'm not feeling particularly generous with him at the moment.  I was overcharged and his mistakes have already cost me time and money.  But...I'll think about it.  Usually grace is extended to the apologetic, which he is not as of yet.

RDSTEAM

no excuses

if your not sure of what to do.....dont do it. If i put in a nuclear reactor and it blew up and charged a crazy amount for it, why should i expect anyone to be nice to me?? i wouldnt cut this guy any slack. his mistakes arent even made by the dummies that work with me. is he a plumber?? no offense to any of the great ones out there.

Charlie from wmass

I am a plumber

RdSteam Whats wrong with plumbers?

DanHolohan

Where would we be without plumbers?

I like plumbers! 

David Sutton_6

Some of my best friends are plumbers

Q.  whats the differance between plumbers and heating guys ?????



A. we tuck our shrits in ;-)  LOL just kidding.



 i will be going over to give him a hand.... in friendship... to make us all better. Thats what Dan would do .... he my hero ;-)



David

aka DrPepper

NH03865

Win - Win

I have read the entire thread and understand that he did many things wrong, didn't live up to the contract by pulling a permit, performing poor work etc. etc....

However, that being said, there are many posts to The Wall that go like:  contractor totally messed up the job, refuses to do anything about it or has totally disappeared, how do I fix my problem.  At least you have a contractor that has admitted his mistake and is willing to try and make it right.

You have the opportunity for the small sum of $39.95 to invest in another person. I have found that a kind response to someone when there is an issue usually has better results than a harsh response. He will probably be stunned that you would do something like this.

 The possibilities are endless, he can actually learn more about 1 pipe systems and really do a teriffic job correcting your system.  He may even learn enough to do the next job correctly.  He may start reading The Wall and see that the people here have successful businesses with happy repeat customers who provide referrals to others (increase in business and profitability).

From reading all of Dan's articles on this site I'm probably have a similiar outlook on life in that I believe that acts of kindness can change the worls (or at least my little corner of it).  Have you shared your smile with someone today or given a word of encouragement or praise.  Have you hugged your wife or children today and told them that you love them (that CAN change your world)

MikeyB

Install

Your a good man David, be sure to take some more pics

RDSTEAM

let me rephrase that....

is he a hack plumber. i said no offense to the great ones out there.  i dont think anyone else in any other field would really tackle a boiler job (electrician or a/c guy). I have no problems with plumbers, my dad has his own company as does my uncle.  the point is, he shouldnt have done something if he didnt know what he was doing. you guys are making him out to be a good contractor cause he wants to fix his mistakes, maybe he doesnt want a giant lawsuit when something blows up.

Maestro232

yes...

I understand your point, and I really will consider it.

Maestro232

Actually...

He said he contracted out the hot water tank piping.  He's not a plumber.



And believe me, I've already cut this guy more slack than he deserves, but I just may go a step further and get him the book too.  We'll see.

Maestro232

Hey Dan...

You may see this guy at your Holyoke class...he sounded moderately interested in it when I sent the link.

Maestro232

I'm actually really glad for this...

Now that I know he's still confused regarding the hartford loop.  You will have ice cold Dr. Pepper waiting....and if you divulge other likes, there could be baked goods too.

Maestro232

I'll make sure...

to take some good pics after.

Maestro232

the blowing up...

was a distinct possibility with that PSI cranked...  There is no questoin that he is NOT a good contractor....but...I think the point of all this is that we are trying to make him better...not just for my sake, but also for all the other clients after me.

Paul Fredricks_3

Party at the Maestro's house!!!

Bring your own baton.