Looking for input

Tim McElwain

I am presently writing Mod/Con Manual Volume III. Volume II is being proof read and will be out probably in June.



Some of you have purchased Volume I, and I have received good feedback, I hope everyone is pleased with the result of trying to write manuals that are directed toward troubleshooting the new stuff.



Volume II features the Weil McLain Ultra all three series along with the new UE version. Volume I was Munchkin, Elite, Mod/Con and Triangle Tube Prestige and Excellence.



Volume III will feature the Viessmann Vitodens 200-W WB2B. I am looking for any input anyone can offer concerning this very fine product. Things that will be positive in nature insuring correct installation and operation. We do not bad mouth any product. I appreciate any input any of you can offer. Thank you in advance.



If you do not want to go public with comments e-mail me at gastc@cox.net .

GW

simple things that aren't simple until you know they're simple

Tim, parhaps I will share what many already know. One thing that I am surprised at is you need to set your moon temp to something normal. It comes from the factory set at somewhere in the 40's! Also the dhw needs to be looked at too, it shuts off a night unless you change the time settings.



Once or twice when i was having a hard time with a radiant installation we needed to do a hard reset. Let me know if you need that sequence.



I have forgotten several times that when you're doing radiant you can't observe the settings in the mixing valve control. If you follow these directions it blinks a fault code.



We use cpvc on our installs. When you have any sort of length to run the concentric gets a bit costly. We buy cpvc 2" 100' at a time (if we worked in jumbo houses we would need some 3" and 4"). Regular PVC is used for the fresh air.



On small simple jobs I haven't been using the LLH. Simple pri sec moves the energy where it needs to go.



Once I didn't have a dhw sensor and used a tekmar sensor instead. It follows the same resistance path so closely to the viesssmann sensor I could tell any difference.



If you do install this system with a pri sec boiler pump and you have your dhw pump in the same orientation as your heating pumps you need the LLh Senser. If you are using the dhw pump straight off the boiler (as indicated in Munchkin drawings ) you don't need the Llh Senser (again, if you're piping this without a Llh. )



One thing I don't understand is the sun setting is also the wwsd. In my home I have a trimatic MC with Radiant and my sun setting is at 11°C. This is just so my larger pump wont run unnecessarily. But if I had a viessmann on a bb job the sun would likely need to be higher (no thermal mass with bb )



I would encourage the use of a 200 or 300 room sensor. Once its installed the viessmann will usually recognize the sensor, if not you need to go to coding level two. Also if you want the room sensor to have "room temperature feedback " you need to program that too which is coding level two, B zero, move to 3. It is my humble opinion installing a mod con without an indoor communicating room sensor is less than ideal. I haven't used two sensors on one job yet (one for high temp and one for low temp), on our two temp jobs we are normally running trv heads on the high temp rads.



If you have never taken a tour through the control you may be slightly intimidated (maybe it's just me) the first time through. And if a few months passes before you work on another system you may need to call for help again. My local rep is great, very helpful.



I could go on and on but I am not sure if this is helpful stuff or not.



Gary

Tim McElwain

Gary, that is

great. Keep them coming everyone it is an opportunity to help others with problems you have found and fixed or avoided by something different you did.

GW

ok

I was on a two Temp system a couple of weeks ago and noticed that the B system (or system 2) temp was reading in Celsius when I was setting the Max temp for the Radiant system. This was in the programming mode, but what was odd was I had already changed the display to read Fahrenheit instead of the factory default Celsius.

CMadatMe

External Demand

The biggest problem I run into with contractors is them grasping the concept that there is no "TT" on the boiler. Nine out of ten contractors on their first install take their end switchs to external demand thinking it's "TT".  The installation and operating manuals do not explain External Demand very well. You need to read both manuals to grasp the whole concept. Fully explaining it in one topic would be a nice feature.



To me it is critical to use a low loss header and sensor. By not, you actually take away system supply side temp feedback to the boiler control. The boiler wants to make the water temp that is needed to satisfy the system. In a sense it could care less what water temp it is making at the temp sensor in the boiler.



Attached is a quick start guide for the boiler control. It gives a basic setup and allows the contractor to get the boiler up and running for those that may not have it.



Lastly Tim I would have a chapter on the Lamda Pro Combustion pointing out what it is and its benefits.





.

GW

yes

That's the truth, Tim you may want to take a social studies class at the local community college before writing an opening statement in your new manual,



This is why simple-minded heating guys/plumbers stay away from these higher tech boilers. It's just to much of a shock to their system. I consider myself 'good' when it comes to Viessmann yet still need to call for help here and there.



It's like men asking for directions....we just don't do it until we are totally lost.



We have installed about 40 Vitodens 100s, this is more of a simple mans boiler. When the new pricing came out for the B series 200 we started selling many more than we used to.

Tim McElwain

In writing the manuals for

these various systems it becomes apparent that the legal responsibility for writing the  I and O manual is met by the manufacturer however making it understandable is something else.



Viessmann has a very good product and there training in Warwick is excellent. The week I attended there were about 25 in the class from varying backgrounds. On the break the comments I heard were relative to the many books given out and the difficulty in following the vast amount of material presented. They have excellent PowerPoint presentation however PowerPoint needs to be in print also as a handout so I can make notes next to what is being said by the instructor concerning what is on the screen. I have finally been able to get some of that PowerPoint (thank you Chris) and I am attempting to put a manual together that takes the PowerPoint presentation and put some good notes next to the image. Hopefully that will help. In addition input from the field is very helpful.



Might I say with all of this new equipment the presentations at training sessions put on by various companies are good but they should give some good handouts to go with the verbal and visual presentation



I have always found myself sitting in the place of my students when putting together written material. The devil is in the details but they need to be made simple so I can understand them. When I can understand them then I can put my understanding in print. When I see a problem, I research, then I write, then we do a seminar the rest is up to you the students. If you do not attend you do not know and you learn the hard way, by trail and error (that costs money) send me the money and come and learn.



I am somewhat limited as I am not out there installing this stuff so I need to hear from others as to what they find most challenging and then try to simply make it understandable.



For those who have my many manuals if i am not doing that let me know.

Mark Eatherton

Trade Secret Cheat Sheets....

ALL the manufacturers have them and they distribute them among themselves. It would be nice to compile a cheat sheet for ALL of these wonderful products, based on the specific product. Kind of a "Quick Start" guide that comes with all of the new PC stuff. The kind of stuff contractors need to know, but don't have the time to research in the field. Programming stuff in particular.



The mechanical stuff is easy (from MY perspective), but the individual control nuances are what is the big time killer in the field. As has been stated, if you use it daily, its not a problem. It's when you only do it occasionally that it becomes an issue. Things to watch for (conflicts in programming that will not allow the control to work), where to go to change from C to F, explanations/translation of certain terms, etc.



I recently read the I&O manual that came with my new Lochinvar boiler (Thanks Shamrock!), and bless the people who put all this stuff together, but I got so confused by their language (DHW set back programming) that I gave up! Most of these manufacturers NEED to employ the services of someone like Tim or myself to go through these manuals to see if they make sense to the typical mechanic, because if TIm or I can't make sense of it, most contractors in the field won't be able to make heads or tails of it either.



Great ideas Tim. I will be purchasing version 1 soon.



As it pertains to hand outs during a class, I am not a big fan of that, because I can see students getting ahead of my presentation, plus they are looking down and not concentrating on the laser pointer that I am using to show them critical details on the board. I have no problem with them making/taking notes, but I don't usually give them anything to read while I am presenting. My time in front of them is limited. They need to pay attention to what I am presenting, and not be so engrossed in the manuals, that they miss what I am trying to project. I too try putting myself into their shoes, and have sat through many a seminar, with and without hand outs, and I have found that for me, I work best without distractions. But that is just my own personal opinion/style.



Your methods and manners may vary :-)



ME

CMadatMe

Well Said Tim

Tim,

If I could give one piece of advise to any that use the WB2 it would be. Apply the application to the boiler keeping it as simple as possible. Really do some homework. What I think gets lost is, most contractors are accustomed to boiler manufactures they use as just that, a boiler mfg. With Viessmann we like to take a complete system approach and fit the boiler and it's available accessories into the complete system while keeping it simple as possible.



The boiler, within the control can do what you want. You just have to identify the needs first. I see guys choosing this boiler and mis-applying it all the time. They are so accustomed to using Tekmar and other controls that they never look at how simple a system they can design by letting the boiler do the job.



I would like to see Viessmann come out with a residential/light commerical applications manual showing and explaining how the boiler can be adapted to complete jobs using single and multiple water temps to include the use of both the Vitotrol 200 and 300 as well as the cascade control. It would make it much easier for the contractor needing to select a "system" that they need. That would be a good manual Tim and willing to bet you'd sell a bunch of them.

GW

Mark

That is a very handsome mug shot you have there. You look like the Lennox man. Actually I was just at the Lennox meeting in Atlantic City...that was you!!



I recently went on a one day riello oil burner training to brush up on my skills and was a little surprised that the instructor did not hand out any material. It seems he took the approach your talking about. Some of us have left dominant brains in others have right side brains; I really would have appreciated the material in the beginning of class instead of the end of the class because I like to underline things and make notes.



This whole communication topic is certainly not easy. We all make perfect sense to ourselves. I once had a university professor compliment me on my communication abilities yet on the other hand I have had an office employee express that my communication style was not so good at all.



To think that there is one teaching method or communication style that reaches everybody might be a bit of a reach. I am not proud to admit this but once in a great while I will meet up with a customer instantly want to leave. It's a classic personality clash. I don't think it's a secret that most of us get along with some personality styles but not what other types. Same holds true for instructors in teachers, you just can't reach everybody.



So the people that wright these manuals obviously do not intend to make it confusing. But I agree for the life of me I can not understand why there are not cheap sheats available. Can you imagine how much bad mouthing on various manufacturers stuff has happened over the years simply because of lack of education? Wow.

Mark Eatherton

Gary...

No two people learn/perceive the same, just as no two instructors teach the same. It is impossible to cover the whole gamut without offending someone, but in all the years I've been teaching/instructing, what I do works well from my perspective. Oh sure, I get complaints from people WANTING handouts, but I still don't pass them out at the beginning, and I always suggest that when they get their hands on the manual, to go back through it quickly, and make the mental notes into written notes while they are fresh in their memories.



We don't actually give a "test" in most cases, but based on feed back from the students, what I'm doing must be working, because there is a high degree of student retention/returning student scenarios. Complaints are typically countered by satisfied students in a majority of cases.



But as I said, no 2 people learn the same, and no 2 instructors teach the same. The smart ones have surveys, and adapt their training to the students requests.



Personally, I have taken courses at my own community college, and the instructor was atrocious, and I told him so in my evaluation. Not intended to criticize, as much as it is intended to help them do a better job of teaching. Unfortunately, I didn't really learn what I wanted to learn due to this situation. Then again, I've had instructors who did an EXCELLENT job of teaching, and weren't aware of their abilities. I let them know of their value as well in my instructor evaluations.



I am far from perfect in any thing I do. All I can do is be the best I can be/do, based on feed back, and I have changed my presentations numerous times based on this feed back.



As my good ol' pappy use to say, "If you don't learn something new every day, you were either A., not paying attention, or B., were gone fishing. And if you WERE gone fishing, and you didn't learn something new, well then you obviously weren't paying attention " :-) The man was learning up to the day he died... and teaching.



PS, Truth be known, that IS Dave Lennox. He looks JUST like ME :-) Don't he?



ME

GW

Cool

I am sure you're an excellent teacher, i was just sharing a perspective. 

Tim McElwain

To give handouts or

not give handouts.



Interesting after many years (50 years actually) of standing in front of people and speaking I find there are no easy answers to what works.



As a minister of the gospel (an ordained minister since 1984 and a lay minister for 14 years before that) I have spoken all over the world. Sometimes using an interpreter (I often wonder if they really say what I said). Seventeen years as a Pastor of an inner city church with a real mixed audience I find I can read a crowd pretty good.



On the technical side however it can be hard. I find that giving something for the students to take with them is very helpful. Any who have attended my classes will tell you that after a week of seminars they are at saturation level. They do however walk away with 8 manuals in loose leaf 1 1/2" binders. I do agree with Mark often times I find some of my students more interested in my manuals than they are me. I do not by the way read to them from the manuals (very boring if you do that).



What I am looking for is in addition to the I & O manual a handout that on the left side of the page is the PowerPoint illustration and directly to the right a place for notes. I really think that works as there is nothing to read just pay attention to the screen presentation. The worst thing people do with PP is put everything they are going to say up on the screen and then stand and read the screen to everyone.



While we are discussing this I also find that what is tough with a lot of the new stuff is all the complicated (that is until you sit down and read it ten times) programming required.



Some of the new equipment may be so complicated and difficult to service that we may be actually defeating in particular the hydronics residential industry.

Jean-David Beyer

I noticed that in another field.

"Some of the new equipment may be so complicated and difficult to service

that we may be actually defeating in particular the hydronics

residential industry."



In one of my past lives, I wrote an operating system for a computer that did not come with one adequate to our needs, or anywhere near. We were doing simulations of real-time picture processing (think PicturePhone). So I wrote it, and then started writing the users' manual that would be used by very smart (Ph.D. level) people in other fields than computers. I got to a part of the system that I thought was really clever. But I just could not describe it in a way that made any sense to my users. And I really tried.



Finally, the light bulb went on. I actually changed the implementation of the system to something that was easier to describe, that the users could understand. It was actually a better way to do that part of the system, mainly because it was simpler.



I also learned an even more important lesson: write the users' manual before you design and build the system. Then what you need to build is clear and what the customer will need (at least, initially).

GW

can you define "really smart "

I am tempted to take offense to such a comment but I know it wasn't meant to put down us " just regular smart" heating guys.



I once had a bump with a guy who bought his own outdoor reset control and wanted me to install it. I don't recall all the exact details but essentially we could not agree on a price for my services. He expressed his feelings towards me, told me he was an engineer, and didn't need my help anyway, and he called the electrician to have his new control installed.



Well, he couldn't figure out how to program it. How did I come to realize this? I was somewhat friendly with the tech people at the manufacturer and gave the tech a heads up about my experience and that he may be getting a call. The tech emailed me several days later and mentioned the engineer fellow needed help, yet the tech told him to hire a heating pro. I smiled at my computer.



The fact of the matter is you must have a certain aptitude to read a manual. If it's a vitodens 200 manual written by Viessman you gotta be on the ball or the lingo will blow you down, unless your brain happens to jive with this level of technology . If it's Tim's manual he will take some of the fear out but you still need to use your index finger on the control.



I meet with hundreds of homeowners a year. I have my own idea how much technical info the average home owner can deal with. You have your idea...Once in a while I will meet a sweet little lady who amazes me with her use of technical jargon; positively amazing. Then, once in a while I all meet a person who absolutely can not understand the difference between a boiler and a furnace even after explaining it 5 times.



It's a fascinating subject.

GW

oops

No post

Jean-David Beyer

What I meant...

'can you define "really smart "'

I never thought that might be interpreted as putting anyone here down. There are lots of different kinds of smart. I took an electrical engineering course from a man with a Ph.D. (required for being a professor at most universities) in electrical engineering and in physics. He had that kind of smarts. But he would have trouble changing a fuse or a light bulb. Fortunately he knew that and hired a professional with less diplomas and more ability for that kind of thing.



The people to whom I was referring not only had impressive academic credentials, but really knew their stuff. Understanding the human visual system, how the brain processed images, etc. But they did not have much smart at understanding computers or programming. They could write simple programs in FORTRAN (this was in the late 1960s and early 1970s), but that was about it. The results of their engineering research found ready publication in refereed professional journals. Probaably none of them could replace a circulator in a hot water heating system.



There are all kinds of smart. I have some of them, but no Ph.D. I have no idea as to the academic credentials of anyone here, and I do not need to know. Many of the people here know more than I will ever know about residential heating systems. As they used to say, some of you guys forget more in a day than I learn in a week. This is a lot like a library that gets its books updated on a daily basis. A very important resource.

GW

i understand

I would guess there aren't many college educated folks here. My wife's family is full of PhD's, I have no clue what they do. My wife is a shrink. We make each other laugh. She laughs when I ask how to spell to most basic words in the English language and I laugh when she can't do the most trivial of house task. Life is great. The good news is everyone posting here can do First grade math (I like the math better than those cryptic slanted letters on the anti-spam system)

rlaggren

Notebook with PP copy on left, note page on right

Or some such.



Just wanted to say, Tim, sounds like the _right_ idea.  My notes tend to get hard to relate back to the material sometimes and that would help; maybe list manual chapter/page references at the bottom of the PP copy. Distribute the manuals et al at the end and everybody s/end up a better informed person with  all the tools to do the job. 



Oh, and by the way, I _believe_ in "chapter/page" numbering for reference manuals (as opposed to absolute page numbers); better yet, put the chapter name at the top of each page as well so riffling the book you can tell where you are w/out memorizing chapter numbers. If you have large subcategories, it can make sense to put the chapter title on the top of the left page and the subcat title at the top of the right page.



Just letting me inner editor vent a little.





Cheers,



Rufus

Tim McElwain

Still looking for

input on Viessmann Vitodens 200-W, WB2B series with Lamda-Pro.